Victory Conditions

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Valdis
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:28 pm

Victory Conditions

Post by Valdis »

I've been in three games in the past few days where I was no worse than even in actual fighting strength and position, but lost because of victory conditions. They were games that I certainly felt I had a chance to win (the most recent was one where I feel I was well ahead: A Crusader with armor damage and no LRMs and a Crusader with heavy damage, no arms, but still had a full load of SRMs and mostly untouched legs, vs a legged Shootist with two rounds of AC/20 ammo and a Longbow 7Q that was down to 2 LRM 20 rounds and had a gyro hit). But due to BV calculations hitting a minimum tipping point, I lost.

I don't see why BV win conditions should come up in matches that are very close and being actively fought out. That last one was a fight I would have fought to the finish 101 times out of 100, and one I would have won probably 85-90% of the time from the position it ended in. I get it for fights where someone is hopping around the map with one Griffin and banking on scoring enough shots on 11s to win, or to have the other person quit, but in a game where every unit is still fighting and both people want to continue? Conversely, I had a game where the win conditions did NOT kick in when my opponent was down to a single Partisan tank with just machine gun ammo left, and I had to hunt through an entire city map to find and kill him.

Is this something anyone else is running in to issues with, or am I just getting an obscene run of bad luck with this? And what's the ultimate goal of the victory conditions?

Jackal
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Re: Victory Conditions

Post by Jackal »

Sounds like it's an flaw with how BV is calculated more-so than victory conditions. The victory conditions haven't changed btw. Those are still:
  1. Player A must reduce player B's BV 60% (happens in every very destructive battle)
  2. Player A must have 150% player B's BV
In 95% of the battles I've been in since victory conditions were implemented (4-5 years now?), those conditions correctly identified the winner.



What I think happened in your example with the CRD's vs. the Shootist and LGB is a couple of things. First the in-game BV system's handling of weapon BV. If the weapon has ammo (even if it's one shot) the weapon contributes its full BV. If it's out of ammo, it contributes none. So from the POV of the BV calculator both of your CRD's had no LRMs (one b/c it had no arms, the other b/c it had no ammo), whereas the LGB's LRM20's still counted 100%, even though it was one salvo away from running out.

The second issue probably has to do with underweighting of gyro hits. I'm not sure how single gyro hits are handled by the system, but I'm guessing it doesn't count nearly as much as it should. Legging *does* reduce a mech's BV very significantly, but since they outweighed you and (to the BV calculator) outgunned you, it was enough to put them over 150%.

Anyway, I agree that's lame in this particular case, but it's also an unusual situation. And it's not really the fault of the victory conditions. It's the way MegaMek calculates BV (which we have no direct control over).

BarukKhazad
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Re: Victory Conditions

Post by BarukKhazad »

From what I have heard in the past, gyro and engine hits do not affect the bv value at all. They are not in the rulebooks so they are not in MegaMek.
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Ceorl
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Re: Victory Conditions

Post by Ceorl »

And what's the ultimate goal of the victory conditions?
To keep someone from delaying a match by using hit and run tactics in an attempt to come back. I am heartily grateful that we have these rules in place to reduce these tactics.
(Retired)

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Valdis
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:28 pm

Re: Victory Conditions

Post by Valdis »

Ceorl wrote:To keep someone from delaying a match by using hit and run tactics in an attempt to come back. I am heartily grateful that we have these rules in place to reduce these tactics.
As am I. I know it's prevented me from dealing with a good number of those type of games, and I remember the time before victory conditions where that sort of thing was common. And I'll admit - I'm having trouble coming up with a BV-based victory condition that would still prevent that type of game, while not causing the issues I've been having. I'm going to keep thinking about it, though.

Anyway, it's interesting to know that gyro hits are essentially irrelevant in the considerations.

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