ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

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kuriosly
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ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by kuriosly » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:50 am

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Whats the ETA on Aerospace enabled ops?

And combined forces with aero?

And are there going to be aero factories?

(More any details/half details would be nice)

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Aunodin
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Aunodin » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:48 am

Combined aero ops will not happen as of yet, there is too much imbalance when a cheap aero unit can easily just crash into a mech for instance and take out an assualt.

For the aero factories and stuff, the factories will be placed soonish and the ops are being written up now

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Nastyogre
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Nastyogre » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:35 am

That and when we had aero having to prepare every army to face it potentially was terribly annoying and contentious. I'd rather see weather return. Fixed rules for engagement and properly coded into Megamek perhaps it might be OK. Then again considering a regiment might have 4 Aerospace fighters, Aeros should cost 30 times what mechs do and the support costs should be enormous. This would prevent tossing aero into every fight.

Last I knew there were several code issues as well. Targetting wasn't correct for facing, MM was using the end or starting position only and I thought it was at any time in the aero flight path. Additionally, Mekwars didn't require repair for Aero so it was a cheap and easy way to farm flu and get chills.

I am looking forward to all aero ops. They are an interesting change of pace. Combined was a problem I'd rather not see return.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by arlith » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:46 pm

Nastyogre wrote:Targetting wasn't correct for facing, MM was using the end or starting position only and I thought it was at any time in the aero flight path.
This should no longer be an issue. MM was updated to reflect current TW errata... some time ago (sorry, don't recall specifics). Now instead of targeting the end point along an aeros flightpath, you target the hex closest to the unit. MM also has somewhat better visual indicators of this: you can click on the aero or the flight path and it will automatically target the right hex, which will be highlighted in teal (instead of the unit icon being highlighted). In cases where there's ambiguity between which hex can be selected, MM supports selecting either hex (although, once one weapon is fired using that hex, all must be).

Note: this errata basically took half of the SO advanced anti-air fire rules and moved it into TW (the whole targeting along the flight path thing), the other half is that velocity can add to-hit penalties. This is still an optional rule for MM.

ASFs can now also strafe, which is something they could not do when MMN used them in the past.
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Tuco » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:58 pm

arlith wrote:
Nastyogre wrote: ASFs can now also strafe, which is something they could not do when MMN used them in the past.
This would also enable a plan from tong ago, adding Aeros as Support Units to a mekwars opfile. Only mekwars code missing now :)... and a council willing to use it.
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Nastyogre » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:12 pm

With targetting corrected, one of the big problems with aero is fixed. Aero as support would be interesting. It's powerful but if it could be limited and shot down, very interesting. If the costs could be worked out (very expensive to use in combined ops, in pure aero I don't care, it's unlikely to unbalance the environment) then combined ops becomes much more viable.

Heck, just aero as support without the ability to use them as a fully functional unit is pretty interesting.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Tuco » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:44 pm

Nastyogre wrote:Heck, just aero as support without the ability to use them as a fully functional unit is pretty interesting.
That was the idea years ago, having them strafe for example just one time in a game. Configurable type of fighter, scalable number of units by ops bv, and predefined number of rounds it can be used.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
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It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
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kuriosly
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by kuriosly » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:28 pm

So from using combined arms on another, recently closed server, current gen aero can only strife along its flightpath. And you generally cant strife every round. It works out to about 1 in 3 rounds.

Aero is targetable with mechs, so in theory you can shoot it down.

Now the downside with the current setup is you have to be very careful not to fly off the map if you want to strafe. Flying off the map causes the unit to reenter in 3 turns. And it cant attack the same turn it flys off.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Deadweight » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:19 am

kuriosly wrote: Aero is targetable with mechs, so in theory you can shoot it down.
You really need specialty ammo and/or LBX rounds to deal with aero. I imagine if aero start appearing in the skies over MMN, more autocannon units may start to appear.

Nasty, I really like your idea of making areo REALLY expensive to field/maintain. They should be.

My big beef with aero is that they also provide full visibility of the map regardless of how high up they are (even VTOLs don't get this) and they get to move during their own phase after all other movement.

As for the intentional lawn-darting of aeros to kill an enemy mech, does the round report indicate when a player intentionally ejects from an aero, and if it did, wouldn't a simple solution just be to amend MMN's server rules to forbid such a practice?

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Aunodin » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:14 am

I think for now we want to focus on aero only ops for now.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Nastyogre » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:14 am

It's not even ejection. It's making impossible maneuver rolls ands lawndarting. Even if we forbid that, ok make a really hard maneuver, sure you might roll a 10 BUT probably not. I did it in the last cycle to have aero, just to see how easy it was and to prove a point. It then comes down to policing and interpretation, a messy thing.

All other challenges aside, if it were only the kamikaze issues it probably becomes workable. I do like the current approach. Aerospace only now. See how it works. Make sure the bugs are out. See how it is received and used. No reason to roll out a feature when 3 players of 100 use it. If half the server population plays some aero, clearly you have interest. These are just made up numbers, no statement by me there on what does or does not constitute interest. That's for the Council and staff to decide.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Spork » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:10 pm

There is one significant blocker to mixed aero and conventional forces: me.

I cannot accurately describe how much I hate aero. Aero-only operations means I can ignore them and others can have their fun. It works out.
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Nastyogre » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:19 pm

The Spork has spoken.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Deadweight » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:09 pm

Spork wrote:There is one significant blocker to mixed aero and conventional forces: me.

I cannot accurately describe how much I hate aero. Aero-only operations means I can ignore them and others can have their fun. It works out.
There could just be a specific "Mixed Aero/Ground Op" that you wouldn't have to partake in. Also, should anyone attack you with such an op, there could be a server rule that states "Spork has the right to cancel out of any Mixed Aero/Ground Op without argument and depending on his mood, he may trash the opposing army." That last bit would be for when someone knows better (like if you're the only P player online and they choose to attack P with their mixed op.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Bloodknight » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:40 pm

Everybody would need that right, given how freakishly annoying aeros in ground ops were last time already. And now they can even strafe, ugh.

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Nastyogre
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Nastyogre » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:44 pm

A support element would be cool. Perhaps aero in ground by arrangement or as a special super op?

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Klingon » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:14 pm

Deadweight wrote:
Spork wrote:There is one significant blocker to mixed aero and conventional forces: me.

I cannot accurately describe how much I hate aero. Aero-only operations means I can ignore them and others can have their fun. It works out.
There could just be a specific "Mixed Aero/Ground Op" that you wouldn't have to partake in. Also, should anyone attack you with such an op, there could be a server rule that states "Spork has the right to cancel out of any Mixed Aero/Ground Op without argument and depending on his mood, he may trash the opposing army." That last bit would be for when someone knows better (like if you're the only P player online and they choose to attack P with their mixed op.
I would imagine an AFR-only op would fulfill this requirement, but admittedly I'm uncertain as to how viable that would be.
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by TigerShark » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:02 pm

arlith wrote:
Nastyogre wrote:Targetting wasn't correct for facing, MM was using the end or starting position only and I thought it was at any time in the aero flight path.
This should no longer be an issue. MM was updated to reflect current TW errata... some time ago (sorry, don't recall specifics).
2/13/2015 and 2/14/2015. They were your commits, I think. :)

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by TigerShark » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:05 pm

Nastyogre wrote:It's not even ejection. It's making impossible maneuver rolls ands lawndarting. Even if we forbid that, ok make a really hard maneuver, sure you might roll a 10 BUT probably not. I did it in the last cycle to have aero, just to see how easy it was and to prove a point. It then comes down to policing and interpretation, a messy thing.
I'm not promoting Aero on your server, by any means. So take this with a grain of salt.

You can easily change the die roll needed for the Aero to actually hit the ground unit. Say, 11+. Means you can TRY to lawn dart into a 'Mech, but only at around a 7% success rate. Not really worth losing a unit for that kind of one-off chance. I realize some like "canon only" for rules, but there are lots of cases (and that's one of them) where the canon rules are just unbelievably silly.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by Bloodknight » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:31 pm

Even at an 11+ it's worth trying that with something like an Angel fighter that's barely above 100 bv. But as it is in the canon rules, after forcing an impossible manoeuver roll you get a 66% chance of hitting the target (since the dodge roll for that is 1-2 on a D6, who came up with that...) and hammering 140ish damage on average in to the enemy unit's punch table. And that's not the only quirk in the rules, I think the whole aero-in-ground-support thing needs a complete rewrite. I don't think it was playtested thoroughly, which I can sort of understand, because on the board the movement, turning and stuff on an atmospheric map is a major PITA, compared to doing it with MegaMek. I think the only thing I tried physically on a board that was worse was double-blind. Lots of people tried it back in my board-gaming days. Once.

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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by arlith » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:20 pm

TigerShark wrote: 2/13/2015 and 2/14/2015. They were your commits, I think. :)
I've made over 1,500 commits... I can't keep track of every single one =P

But, thanks for the dates.
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Re: ETA on Aerospace enabled Ops?

Post by TigerShark » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:16 pm

arlith wrote:
TigerShark wrote: 2/13/2015 and 2/14/2015. They were your commits, I think. :)
I've made over 1,500 commits... I can't keep track of every single one =P

But, thanks for the dates.

Haha I didn't expect you to. I just happened to know the dates & author because I patched that data a few days ago.

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