Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

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Nastyogre
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Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by Nastyogre » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:05 pm

Affer a discussion this afternoon, I realized both stairstep and the Variable BV spread are in effect. Thus if an army fits but doesn't fill the weight slots you can have an illegal army.
This seems unnecessary. If you really want to build a force with 3 Talons and a Charger. Well, OK. (good luck getting 3 Talons)

It just seems like we have the spread and we don't need more limitations.

Jackal
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Re: Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by Jackal » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:50 pm

We could *try* Variable BV Spread without Stair Step, but my gut feeling it would lead to a significant increase in min-max armies.

VBVS + SS seems to have been pretty effective in shutting down extreme min-maxing. (I know you've been playing less recently, Nasty, but when was the last time you saw an army that you thought was abusively min-maxed?)

VBVS by itself might be a problem, however. VBVS is essentially a less restrictive version of the old Fixed BV Spread system. And with FBVS there were occasional problems with with min-max armies in the low BV range. Since VBVS is basically less restrictive than FBVS, those min-max problems would almost certainly be worse if VBVS were used by itself.


In any case, I'm up for trying VBVS by itself, but (especially since I anticipate problems if we go that way) I think we should keep going with VBVS + SS for at least 1-2 months longer so we have a good baseline to compare to.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by Nastyogre » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:58 pm

I am not sold either way. Zerberus mentioned something, I tend to agree, though min/max might become a problem. I think it's harder to build when we have to pay attention to the bv spread. It becomes tougher to actually make a non-stairstep army that would be viable.

It's why I started it as a discussion rather than a suggestion.

maelstorm
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Re: Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by maelstorm » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:53 am

one of the many effective armies i played against in previous cycles was 2 demolishers 2 wolfhounds. while yes the lights can really make it a pain in the rear time for the demolishers depending on terrain it was an army i wanted to try fielding.

the stair step rule nixed that right in the bud.

But it also created problems for me when i got my armies smashed and coudln't field anything decent because of the stupid rule. can't take a heavy and 3 lights (3x lct + jaggermech) it made tank armies for myself to field not viable (only having a bunch of lightly armored lrm tanks and 1 medium that moved fast and rest questionable assault tanks was a pain.

honestly i prefer bv spreads on the whole.

hegemon
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Re: Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by hegemon » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:37 am

A different style of Min max is happening with the stairstep armies. When in doubt throw in a Low cost Vee. Get the best of all worlds. I do not think the Stair step has stopped Mik Maxing. Just gave it a new method to do it

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Nastyogre
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Re: Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by Nastyogre » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:42 am

Stair step helps stop some of the worst min-max, variable BV catches much of the rest of the really beardy stuff. I was working on an army the other day that had A Charger and 4 or 5 lights, played with it too. Bad me. Course, I lost. Realized during repairs it was illegal.
Vees can be used to fill the steps cheaply. Often those "fillers" aren't the most effective units, though sometimes they are very effective. Tiger II tank goes OK as a medium but won't hold up long. Still for 600ish BV it's not too bad. Drillison is 900ish and will do bad things to mechs. Both are mediums.

My question is whether or not Stairstep is really necessary. If the units fit within the variable BV spread, isn't that enough? They are "objectively" (as much as BV is accurate) balanced. They are in the ballpark BV wise. My proposed 4 lights and a Charger is even thematically accurate as the Charger is a scout.

We've been able to use low bv units to Init and BV sink all the time. Pure stairstep eliminated the restrictions so you could match up very expensive units (in terms of BV) with very inexpensive units. Variable spread stops the worst of that. Is there enough concern outside of what variable BV spread prevents to keep Stairstep.

I am thinking no.

Anybody have any proposed army builds that would really need to be avoided that the variable spread allows but the stairstep then prevents?

Your concern with vee and mech mixing and using those vees to BV sink is a related by different issue, Hegemon. You are welcome to use what I wrote in the CC forum to make your point. I'm not bothered enough by it to push that idea. I see it more as a benefit than a detriment.

hegemon
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Re: Discussion: Remove Stairstep rule

Post by hegemon » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:25 pm

I have brought this point several times. It won't change, and sadly I am not willing to fight the level of apathy in this issue. If, this is worse thing about the game I am mostly fine.

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