Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Miscellaneous topics about the campaign

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Abe
Sarna.net Ambassador
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:14 am

Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Abe » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:11 pm

Hello all!

I ran into a question in my last game, and I wasn't sure what the Etiquette was. I'm not posting this to call anyone out, this is not in the Complaint thread, and I won;t use any names either. I am interested more in MMNet etiquette and lessons I can learn from those going forward.

I was playing an opponent. I had destroyed one of his units. He had destroyed one of mine. I had downed one of his mechs, and it was in really bad shape. We are deep into the game, and virtually every unit is badly damaged of various sorts. The game is leaning my way, but could flip. My opponent tells me that he has to leave soon, and will surrender at the end of this turn if the game continues. So I leave a unit beside his downed Mech in order to try and finish it, and go overheat massively to try to end things without him being forced to surrender. At the end of the turn, when I was unable to do so, my foe then announces that he will surrender at the end of teh next turn.

Well, now that mech is overheat, and not in a great position on the board. But I do not push him and tell him that since he mentioned the game was ending that turn, then he needs to keep to his word. The reason is simple. I don;t want to see seen as a d$%&. I don't want people to say, "Man, that Abe, he was such an A$& to that guy," and then get a lot of trouble later on. There's a social contract to these sorts of games, and that means both players need to have fun - I get that.

The next round begins, and my foe gets fast units around my overheated and exposed Mech. In the weapons fire, he gets a head shot and killed it and then wins the game.

So a few questions. Hey look, head shots happen, I'm not pissed. I'm not huffing and puffing, I finished having a conversation with him, I'm noto asking to toss him on no-play or getting even. That's not the point of this post. That's why I've tried to keep details back. Because I can't get upset unless I spoke up. If I spoke up, and then my foe had said, "Nope, we're going to keep going, forget what I said," then things change. But I didn't.

Honestly, if I had, what would have been the impression? Would that have been perfectly reasonable, or would I have ruffled feathers? What would have been the result? What's the expected behavior here from folks? Thanks for your help!

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Nastyogre » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:07 pm

If a player types /defeat AND the foe accepts it by typing /victory THEN and only then (as I understand it) is it enforceable. Player A surrendered, Play B accepted, no further actions on either part should take place. Depending upon what time in a round it is, there may be unintended actions that could damage or destroy units. Overheating, artillery etc. Players should not fire weapons, conduct physicals or even move once the surrender notice is given and accepted. I've alerted my opponent to incoming arty if they were standing on a target sometimes you can't control it of course. This didn't happen in your case. There was an indication of probable surrender and you all continued playing. So all actions are acceptable, legal and still in the spirit of the game.

What I do to take care of your problem is play hard and all the way until the final bell. I also rarely accept surrenders except at the end of the round. If a round goes badly and I have position to destroy or put a unit into the salvage pool, I will typically force that to play out. Similarly, I rarely surrender any time but at the end of a round, or at least after physicals.

In your case, I wouldn't have gone gonzo to force the game. You have the advantage of position and time. Play strongly but not expose yourself and you will win. (Probably) So he told you he would surrender but played one more round and the game turned, as it happens. I guess what I would do is chalk it up to our friend RNG and remember not to expose myself. Very, very few players here would try that as a trick to get you to be reckless in the hopes of a win. Have there been players here that I wouldn't put that past them, sure but I honestly don't know that any of them are playing any more. I think the staff would be very interested if such a thing occurred consistently enough to show it was being used as a tactic as that would call into question the "respect other players" rule, which is very high up on the list.

I'm not staff, just old and loud and a faction leader too often. I don't see a broken rule, just what looks to be crappy luck.

Abe
Sarna.net Ambassador
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:14 am

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Abe » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:29 pm

Nastyogre wrote:If a player types /defeat AND the foe accepts it by typing /victory THEN and only then (as I understand it) is it enforceable. Player A surrendered, Play B accepted, no further actions on either part should take place. Depending upon what time in a round it is, there may be unintended actions that could damage or destroy units. Overheating, artillery etc. Players should not fire weapons, conduct physicals or even move once the surrender notice is given and accepted. I've alerted my opponent to incoming arty if they were standing on a target sometimes you can't control it of course. This didn't happen in your case. There was an indication of probable surrender and you all continued playing. So all actions are acceptable, legal and still in the spirit of the game.

What I do to take care of your problem is play hard and all the way until the final bell. I also rarely accept surrenders except at the end of the round. If a round goes badly and I have position to destroy or put a unit into the salvage pool, I will typically force that to play out. Similarly, I rarely surrender any time but at the end of a round, or at least after physicals.

In your case, I wouldn't have gone gonzo to force the game. You have the advantage of position and time. Play strongly but not expose yourself and you will win. (Probably) So he told you he would surrender but played one more round and the game turned, as it happens. I guess what I would do is chalk it up to our friend RNG and remember not to expose myself. Very, very few players here would try that as a trick to get you to be reckless in the hopes of a win. Have there been players here that I wouldn't put that past them, sure but I honestly don't know that any of them are playing any more. I think the staff would be very interested if such a thing occurred consistently enough to show it was being used as a tactic as that would call into question the "respect other players" rule, which is very high up on the list.

I'm not staff, just old and loud and a faction leader too often. I don't see a broken rule, just what looks to be crappy luck.


I don;t see a broken rule either. That's not why I posted.

Look my job when I sit down to play a game is to ensure that my opponent has fun too. That's the point of a game, it's a contest for enjoyment. If all we wanted to do was win and that's it then we'd simply be playing some Rock-Papers-Scissors Simulation and move on. I don;t want to do anything that would make one of my opponents upset, or think of me poorly. Or else I have literally failed as an opponent, and wasted their time.

So then the question is simple. Here, on MMNet, if I had called my foe on this, what would have happened? Would it have ruined his day? Would it have annoyed him? What about others? What about you and the people you know? What would be the reception?

Jackal
Posts: 1391
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Jackal » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:56 pm

I wasn't involved in the battle you're describing (at least I don't think I am), but here's my view on MMNet Etiquette:


Overall:
  • I personally like to take the high road most of the time. If a player has been a basically good sport and he needs to go/needs to surrender, I'm usually cool with that. If I make a verbal (text) commitment to do something, I also usually stand by my commitment.
  • That said, not everyone plays that way, so be prepared for that.
  • Moreover, most verbal (text) commitments are also non-binding on this server, so keep that in mind. Even if a player says he's going to surrender, there's basically nothing to stop him from changing his mind.
  • This also means that you should avoid playing like "this is the last round" because, sometimes (like in your case) it won't be.
Accepting a surrender vs. demanding terms:
  • Something you should also keep in mind you also don't HAVE to let your opponent surrender. So in your case (where it sounds like you were trying to capture/kill one of your opponents heavily damaged units), you could have DEMANDED that your opponent ejected it as a condition for you accepting the surrender. That frequently pisses people off though, so do this sparingly (if at all).

Anyway, you basically have to judge it on a case by case basis. Like I said before, it's generally best to take the high road in most situations, but if someone does something really egregious (particularly if they have a pattern of such behavior over a number of games) then sometimes the hammer has to fall.

Hope that helps,

Jackal

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Nastyogre » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:02 pm

Most players wouldn't have minded but probably would have said, "yeah, one more turn and I got lucky, sorry." Your response ( mature and measured I would think) would dictate how it went. I wouldn't have asked for or expected surrender in your case, I gambled and lost.

Jackal
Posts: 1391
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Jackal » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:19 pm

Agreed, Ogre, but possibly we're focused on different moments in the story. The part I was referring to is his decision to leave a unit next to his opponent's downed mech in order to "try to finish it."

My assumption here is that finishing-off that unit was a priority for him for some reason (maybe he was trying to capture it, etc.). I should also add that unloading on a unit to the point of overheating when your opponent has already said he intends to surrender might strike some people as kind of a dick move (no offense to you Abe, just trying to see if from the other guy's point of view).

In that situation, I think there are basically two appropriate ways to go (depending on the game). Either:

a) take the high road, don't try to finish-off the downed unit, and coast to a win, or
b) (if finishing-off that unit is important for some reason) demand that the defender eject the unit as a condition of accepting the surrender.


Also, if I was going to take Option B, I probably would have also said something IMMEDIATELY after he said he would probably surrender at the end of the turn. Something along the lines of: "Ok man, but but just be warned I intend to capture your XYZ-mech. If you end up on the ground and I'm about to leg you I'm NOT going to accept the surrender at that point. What I might suggest is you just surrender now while things are still up in the air. That way you don't risk losing your mech and I don't risk losing a battle that I'm on my way to winning." Or something like that.

I want to stress again though: I would ONLY do that if I felt I had a very good reason. If it had basically been a fun game, my opponent had fought honorably, was enjoyable to play, etc. I'd just take the high road a coast to the win. What goes around tends to come around.

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Nastyogre » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:14 pm

As always Jackal, we are more or less in agreement. There is a reason why I wanted you to be the First Prince, case in point.

Abe
Sarna.net Ambassador
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:14 am

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Abe » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:29 pm

Jackal wrote:Agreed, Ogre, but possibly we're focused on different moments in the story. The part I was referring to is his decision to leave a unit next to his opponent's downed mech in order to "try to finish it."

My assumption here is that finishing-off that unit was a priority for him for some reason (maybe he was trying to capture it, etc.). I should also add that unloading on a unit to the point of overheating when your opponent has already said he intends to surrender might strike some people as kind of a dick move (no offense to you Abe, just trying to see if from the other guy's point of view).

In that situation, I think there are basically two appropriate ways to go (depending on the game). Either:

a) take the high road, don't try to finish-off the downed unit, and coast to a win, or
b) (if finishing-off that unit is important for some reason) demand that the defender eject the unit as a condition of accepting the surrender.


Also, if I was going to take Option B, I probably would have also said something IMMEDIATELY after he said he would probably surrender at the end of the turn. Something along the lines of: "Ok man, but but just be warned I intend to capture your XYZ-mech. If you end up on the ground and I'm about to leg you I'm NOT going to accept the surrender at that point. What I might suggest is you just surrender now while things are still up in the air. That way you don't risk losing your mech and I don't risk losing a battle that I'm on my way to winning." Or something like that.

I want to stress again though: I would ONLY do that if I felt I had a very good reason. If it had basically been a fun game, my opponent had fought honorably, was enjoyable to play, etc. I'd just take the high road a coast to the win. What goes around tends to come around.

Honestly, I just wanted to finish the game that turn fairly, so he wouldn't need to surrender. That was my goal. If I had salvaged it, then I would have repaired it and donated to my faction bays. It's a mech I don't like to use, but I know a lot of folks really like, so I would have given other Caps a chance at it. So it would have been nice. But my goal was to get the game over with fairly. Again, with the ultimate goal of giving my opponent a good game, rather than a game he had to call early due to time.

User avatar
Bloodknight
MegamekNET PR Administrator
Posts: 1377
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Germany

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Bloodknight » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:51 am

What I do to take care of your problem is play hard and all the way until the final bell. I also rarely accept surrenders except at the end of the round.
That's what I do, too. However, I do not like it when people tell me they want to surrender and then go all alphastrike on me. Or they go all alphastrike, notice that they couldn't kill my stuff, and then surrender while their mechs are all at very limited capacity for the next turn or two turns. In that case I'll play on. "You're not dead, oops!" is not something I enjoy.

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: Question about Server Etiquette and Such

Post by Nastyogre » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:57 pm

Bloodknight wrote:
What I do to take care of your problem is play hard and all the way until the final bell. I also rarely accept surrenders except at the end of the round.
That's what I do, too. However, I do not like it when people tell me they want to surrender and then go all alphastrike on me. Or they go all alphastrike, notice that they couldn't kill my stuff, and then surrender while their mechs are all at very limited capacity for the next turn or two turns. In that case I'll play on. "You're not dead, oops!" is not something I enjoy.
yes sometimes players have to learn the hard way not to do silly things (like alphastriking 4 units in the same turn) :-)

Post Reply