black market, blind or open?

Miscellaneous topics about the campaign

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
obese pigeon
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:51 am

black market, blind or open?

Post by obese pigeon » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:53 am

Hi, just wondering how people feel regarding an open (you can see what you are bidding on) or blind (you can only see the class of unit you are bidding on) black market. Which do you prefer and why?

Here are my thoughts:

1) Open black market
Good:
-being open, the prices paid for units should reflect the true market value of said units (caveat below)
-gives players a better sense of control when growing their hanger (ie when you are looking to buy a VTR, you dont accidentally end up buying yet another LGB-0W)
Bad:
-(Caveat) players who have played more games can afford to pay more. For example, joe casual isn't going to be able that AWS-8Q when mr hardcore is willing to drop 30k on it.
-Encourages cherrypicking

2) Blind black market
Good:
-more of that 'lottery' feeling ^^
-no cherrypicking, players have to adapt their playstyle to play what they get -> in the long term results in a more skilled and adaptable playerbase
-joe casual has just as much chance per purchase to get something good as mr hardcore

Bad:
-reduced sense of control with regard to hanger growth. Cant do much if the past 6 pulls have been LGBs (i've been there ^^)


After some thought, i think i prefer the blind market because i dont think cherry-picking helps develop skill. What are your thoughts?

Zerberus
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:58 pm

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Zerberus » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:22 am

Blind.

I think I can still count the factory pulls on one hand this cycle, except infantry. That is not how I feel it should be.

Open BM is super resource effective now. The influence cost is negligible anyway, compared to factories. To be equal to factory pulls, base BM prices would have to be weighted with the inverse probability of pulling the units. Yes, a 10 % chance ARC-2R would have a base bid of 40k cbills, then ...

Deadweight
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:17 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Deadweight » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:52 am

Open.

If it's blind then there's no real point in taking the risk on something that might be highly undesirable. Might as well just wait to use your RP if you want to gamble.

Eric von Kastell
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Eric von Kastell » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:00 am

I'd also prefer Blind due to the reasons obese wrote down.

Lando
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:18 pm

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Lando » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:36 am

I prefer open BM.

If I look at the other chances to buy new units there is no other way to get a spezific unit you want.

You can buy with RPs and get a random pull from your faction build tables. There are to many units on that list, that you have the chance to get the unit you like or need. (Hmm I need a new brawler for my lance, lets pull a unit - Yeah I got a new VL-2T great! hmpf)
It is the same if you buy new units from the factories.

If you buy used units from the faction status, then you get a better chance, but most often there is one unit you want, and three to five units you don't want to use. And most often the units in the faction status were donated from players, which don't want to play them. Often for a good reason.

So with the BM you can go for a spezific unit, but you have to pay more for it. IMHO a fair deal.

If the BM where hidden, there is no reason to use it anyway. Why should I bet on a random unit, pay more for the unit and have the chance to get overbidden? Only to pull from a different build table with mostly the same units and only difference chances of spezific units?

That makes no sense in my opinion. If the BM is open it is a good complement to the other options of buying a unit.

We can change the varity of units, reduce the numbers of "cheesy" units, but I would prefer an open BM.
-

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Nastyogre » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:34 pm

I am torn. An open BM allows for better army customization. Players like to play with armies that have units they like. That can lead to some very fine tuned armies. Those can be very beardy which reduces player enjoyment some. Running into half a dozen inferno equipped hovers is no fun.

I do sorta enjoy the feel of hoping for good and getting crap. It's the era. We use what we get. I would be all for an open BM if we had more variation. There would be fewer instances of gimmick armies.

Ironboot
Mekwars Server Operator
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:00 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Ironboot » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:39 am

Open.

User avatar
Klingon
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:59 am
Location: Austin, Texas (on assignment from Luthien)

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Klingon » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:49 am

I'd like to see both, with maybe 1/4 the units be open/visible. That way the ones who want to spend huge amounts of money on the one AWS-8Q they can see can do so. Bonus if it can be with "Sicilian"* rules, where both the winner and the first runner up pay in, but only the winner gets the unit.

*-It was called that in a movie I recall seeing, but I have no idea which one now.
"Grasshopper, the three secrets to life are as follows. First, keep your eyes and ears open. Second... don't tell everything you know."

Got a good idea to add to MekWars? We'd love to hear about it. (from that page, go to "Tickets", then "Feature Requests")

Ceorl
Posts: 529
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:43 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Ceorl » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:06 am

Blind.

I think I can still count the factory pulls on one hand this cycle, except infantry. That is not how I feel it should be.

Open BM is super resource effective now. The influence cost is negligible anyway, compared to factories. To be equal to factory pulls, base BM prices would have to be weighted with the inverse probability of pulling the units. Yes, a 10 % chance ARC-2R would have a base bid of 40k cbills, then ...
Agreed.

As an alternative, I've always wanted to suggest an Open BM composed only of used, cycled factory units. I can't speak to the House factions but P has a lot of used units get cycled through the bays, some good, many so-so. Since the BM does not provide pilot skill level, even purchasing a good unit would remain a gamble since the unit may have a 3/4 pilot. The buyer, now invested, would likely use the unit until he could retire the pilot or donate and repeat the cycle.
(Retired)

Casimir
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:57 pm

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Casimir » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:00 am

I vote for an open BM. I am not much of a gambler and the one thing i dislike most about BT is the rng. Funny as it sounds.

I put a lot of effort into well rounded armys. For me, that is not cherrypicking, but the strategical part of a tactical game and the part i really like most :-)

User avatar
Mole
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:27 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Mole » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:53 am

I like the open BM and vote to continue it, but think that the BM prices should be higher than the hangar prices to allow for the "cherrypicking" aspect of things. Currently "used" units in the faction hangar are half the price of "new" units from the faction factory. Make the BM prices double the faction factory prices and folks will go back to using factory pulls more often/
"Take what you can, give nothing back!"
The beard, the earrings, the rum...of course I'm a pirate.

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Nastyogre » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:27 pm

FS emptied their factories of Heavies and Assault mechs. I'm for the double the cbills, I dunno about double the flu cost. I'd like to see the "bid" cost still be low on the BM.

Deadweight
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:17 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Deadweight » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:45 pm

My gut tells me that another nice thing about having an open black market is that it might "seem" more friendly (whether or not it is can be debated some other time) to new players. New players often really want to play with their favorite units and having an open black market might be a good way to attract and retain new players.

User avatar
Mole
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:27 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Mole » Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:16 pm

Nastyogre wrote:FS emptied their factories of Heavies and Assault mechs. I'm for the double the cbills, I dunno about double the flu cost. I'd like to see the "bid" cost still be low on the BM.
Agreed, I like the low flu cost to bid, I was only suggesting double the price because you can pick what you want vs. factory pulls. I'd also like to see the flu costs come down for factory pulls as it needlessly hampers new players that loose a lot of units.
"Take what you can, give nothing back!"
The beard, the earrings, the rum...of course I'm a pirate.

User avatar
Nastyogre
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

Re: black market, blind or open?

Post by Nastyogre » Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:10 pm

I'd rather see the costs for factories go up so a player that loses 4-6 units a day cannot sustain that. There's no impetus to improve currently. I am all for allowing players to play with the units they want but a player that consistently throws good units after bad can badly damage the productive capacity of a faction. At least by increasing factory pulls such a player would have to focus on meds and lights due to cost. Perhaps a better limit on the pulls. Higher factory flu costs? This is not directly discussing the BM but is related.

Post Reply