Donating to faction

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Deadweight
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Donating to faction

Post by Deadweight » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:01 pm

Is it possible to get the notice pop-up window to provide more details about what it will cost a player to donate something as well as asking if the player is sure they want to do so?

ex. a player chooses to donate a MAD-3R to the house bays and the pop up window read "Are you sure you want to do this?" with "Yes" and "no" buttons. It would be ideal if it read "This will cost you 500 CBills and 30FLU. Are you sure you want to do this?".

Tuco
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Tuco » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:37 pm

That's not coded, moving.
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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:44 pm

Is it possible to find out what that calculation is? Perhaps we could come up with something as part of the new player tutorials that would make this info available, so we would have something to offer before the code is written and implemented?

From experience it is a factor of donate/vs scrap (scrapping is more expensive) and then weight class. I am not sure if Mech vs vehicle vs infantry impacts the cost. If it's just a chart we could publish it.

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Mole
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Mole » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:14 am

Yes, I agree with the Chairman, if we can at least get a table to provide to folks that would be useful.
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McMadMax
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by McMadMax » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:12 pm

Mole wrote:Yes, I agree with the Chairman, if we can at least get a table to provide to folks that would be useful.
Donating (and scrapping of undamaged units) is a % of the unit cost.
This will only take one try (2 to cover both donating and scrapping) to determine the actual % used.
The problem comes with scrapping of damaged units.I think you get some kind of discount on scrapping if it's red, but when this happens and the amount of that discount is a mistery to me.

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Mole
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Mole » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:38 pm

And the don't forget the flu cost. It should not be trade secret to share with players at least an approximation of how both types of cost are calculated.
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Spork
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Spork » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:54 pm

The code is available to anyone who wants to read it. The campaign settings are downloaded every time you log on. *nothing* is a trade secret.
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McMadMax
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by McMadMax » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:55 pm

Mole wrote:And the don't forget the flu cost. It should not be trade secret to share with players at least an approximation of how both types of cost are calculated.
Same goes to the flu. % of the flu cost of the new one (by that i mean base cost of purchasing from own factory).
Some time ago it was 50% for donating and 75% for scrapping. Si if buying a new heavy mek costs 4000 cBills and 90 flu, donating would be 2000 cBills and 45 flu (3k and 60 flu for an assault). I belive this setting is server-wide. At least that's what it was on MMnet.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:40 pm

Spork wrote:The code is available to anyone who wants to read it. The campaign settings are downloaded every time you log on. *nothing* is a trade secret.
So what file is it in. I'm looking at my MMNET folder. Which file? I don't find a Campaign file. Ogres are not entirely incompetent PC users, but we are poor coders and programmers. Our fingers are too fat and "decompiling" is too much like destroying so we just break stuff. (Compiling is right out, that's like building stuff and we only know how to break things)
We can read, albeit poorly. Is it a file that is only present when we have opened the client?

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Mole
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Mole » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:09 pm

And if you think ogres are bad at this, imagine drunken pirates!
"Take what you can, give nothing back!"
The beard, the earrings, the rum...of course I'm a pirate.

Spork
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Spork » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:17 pm

You are also terrible detectives.

Where in your client is server-specific information stored?
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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:32 pm

I duuno, if not the MMNET folder?

Edit: I was looking in a folder that never downloaded the client settings (something I had at work to look at on my lunch hour) I believe I have found it.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:39 am

I find these Variables

Donation:
Donation Cost multiplier .75 I assume this is 75% of new cost.
Donatingcostsbills= false I don't understand that, we know it costs to donate.
Donatedamaged units= false

Scrap:
Cost toscrap critically damaged= .2 So 20% of the cost?
Cost to scrap engined -.1 This would explain those 1 cbill scraps
Cost to scrap only armor damage= .25 25% Hmm I seem to recall that units with only armor damage cost as much as a fresh unit to scrap or close.
Scrap cost Multiplier 1.5 Is this for all scraps or those that are undamaged? Is the Multiplier of the base unit cost? Are the costs to scrap then modifying this amount.


I did look and I don't see the calculations. Unless its in another file that I should be looking at.

Spork
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Spork » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:33 pm

Calculations are in code.

I didn't say it would be simple. I did say we're not hiding anything from you, and I'm tired of being told we are.

The code has *ALWAYS* been available to everyone.

Searching code for "DonatingCostsBills" gets me to DonatePilotCommand. That's probably not what you're looking for.

Searching code for "DonationCostMultiplier" brings me to DonateCommand. That's what I want.

Code: Select all

float costMulti = Float.parseFloat(house.getConfig("DonationCostMultiplier"));

int moneyToDonate = Math.round(p.getMyHouse().getPriceForUnit(m.getWeightclass(), m.getType()) * costMulti);
Never had much, grew up with nothing
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Been down and out, I've been on top of the world,
World that keeps on spinning on a turntable.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:57 pm

Spork wrote:Calculations are in code.

I didn't say it would be simple. I did say we're not hiding anything from you, and I'm tired of being told we are.

The code has *ALWAYS* been available to everyone.

Searching code for "DonatingCostsBills" gets me to DonatePilotCommand. That's probably not what you're looking for.

Searching code for "DonationCostMultiplier" brings me to DonateCommand. That's what I want.

Code: Select all

float costMulti = Float.parseFloat(house.getConfig("DonationCostMultiplier"));

int moneyToDonate = Math.round(p.getMyHouse().getPriceForUnit(m.getWeightclass(), m.getType()) * costMulti);
So I must not have been looking at the right file then. What I was looking at had no calculations. It was a txt file with a bunch of variable. Not understanding how these different programs work together, it is going to be very hard for us to determine where to even begin to look. What is obvious to you what to look for, is not obvious for those that do not know programming. I am not even sure what file to look at to try and read the code. That's why we ask.

When we ask for information and are told the information is in the code, depending upon how hard that is for the uneducated to decipher, that's more or less telling us the information is hidden. We don't know even where to begin. I asked for how ELO modifies Land gain YEARS ago. Never once told it was a variable or a calculation I could go look up. I figured it was something server side we weren't allowed to know.

I'm not admonishing you Spork, really I'm not. (I tried that once I think, it ended badly, for me and made you think that I wasn't treating you with the respect that you deserve and is expected that I show) I am just trying to help you understand when we ask for the mechanics of something, we don't know where to begin to look. I've worked in finance for about 2/3 of my career since graduating college. We can't sell a financial product or a mortgage and reply to a request for information with "It's in your Prospectus, or Mortgage contract, go look it up." The public doesn't have the expertise to figure out the nitty gritty details of financial products. We have to help them.

It's more reasonable to ask us to go out and look at open source code. It is. While code is not exactly English, it's a flavor thereof. Most of the concepts we ask about aren't beyond our ability to understand (the way some financial products are too much for the average investor or homeowner to grasp without alot of education on our part) We just need the direction. Which file? I found the txt file that listed those variables, but I wasn't sure what file to look at to see where the variable might be used.

I really don't want you to have to find it all for me, just point me in the right direction and be willing to help explain a bit when I think I've found what I'm looking for. Just saying "it's in the code" doesn't point me in a direction except for every file in my Mekwars folder. Sure some things are right out, gif's etc.

Thank you for your help and patience. I hope you understand how appreciative and how beholden we are to you (and Tuco and anybody else that knows the files) on how to figure out the settings for the server.

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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Spork » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:28 pm

You looked in the right place. That is every single campaign setting. How it is used can be determined from code, which lives at Sourceforge.

Let me try to put this in perspective. This conversation is really an offshoot of the conversations with the Council. Changes are being made or suggested that are complex in implementation, extremely complex in some cases (Operations). Operations alone have hundreds of settings. When you approach subjects of that complexity, intending to make changes to the current implementation thereof, you are in fact acting as a server operator.

Now, I am not trying to discourage that, in fact quite the opposite - it's exciting and fun to watch. But I have rules for new server operators. One of those rules is that they learn to look at code and troubleshoot. If you had access to the Server Operators forum, you would see that - I am unforgiving of SOs who are unwilling to compile and unwilling to look at code. There are huge swaths of this product that I've never looked at. Remember that I am the 3rd maintainer of just the MekWars side of things, and that doesn't even take into account the MegaMek.net product it was forked from. I couldn't answer how repodding works if I had to, for instance.
Never had much, grew up with nothing
But the music, well it was something
Been down and out, I've been on top of the world,
World that keeps on spinning on a turntable.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:49 pm

See I wasn't aware I should be looking at SourceForge for the code. (I do know what that is, surprisingly yeah me!) I figured it was something hiding in a a Mekwars folder.

You are spot on that much of this comes from the actions of the Council. We are trying to balance the campaign, and ops and everything. It is maddening. I honestly couldn't have done what Jackal has done. PERHAPS if I had the time I could have done something close. I neither have the time nor the expertise to do it in a reasonable amount of time. Frankly, all I am trying to do is get more info to help make decisions, decide what info to give the players, and provide input to Jackal on Op settings and not be totally ignorant. I am a technical trainer by trade, being ignorant and unhelpful is against my nature.

Thank you for your patience. I'm not sure I'm ready to jump into being considered a server operator (officially) but I can probably learn to read the code enough not to be an idiot, maybe.

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Bloodknight
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Bloodknight » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:31 am

It is maddening.
Yeah. Now you see why we burned through some admins in some time (and that includes me. I'm really happy that you guys are trying to figure it all out now and not I anymore). Given that Spork and Tuco have been doing this for ages, at least I used to extremely underestimate their work until I hopped in for a cycle and had to try to make sense of it all (also, never forget that gamers can be an unforgiving bunch, I think a certain ruminant can sing arias about that). It tells me that we should make everybody look at all this stuff at least once so the admins get the appreciation they deserve.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:31 pm

Bloodknight wrote:
It is maddening.
Yeah. Now you see why we burned through some admins in some time (and that includes me. I'm really happy that you guys are trying to figure it all out now and not I anymore). Given that Spork and Tuco have been doing this for ages, at least I used to extremely underestimate their work until I hopped in for a cycle and had to try to make sense of it all (also, never forget that gamers can be an unforgiving bunch, I think a certain ruminant can sing arias about that). It tells me that we should make everybody look at all this stuff at least once so the admins get the appreciation they deserve.
I THINK, this is a good way to do things. It is a bit of giving the inmates control of the asylum, but with a group of motivated, well meaning councilmembers, it can really shift that burden to be more realistic. The biggest, most important things are the job of the admins. The stuff that simply cannot be left to chance or the whimsy of a player base. Mods help enforce the rules and assist with problems. Council helps set the adjustable campaign rules. Involvement of the rank and file in electing the Council and the having the Council act as pseudo-staff really legitimizes things. It's all the rage in corporate management these days.

We will see. We could totally screw it up. These ops and the ELO adjustment could totally backfire. Any sort of campaign that is more than a matchmaking service is fraught with perils. We could screw it up badly enough the admins will have to take back over or override the Council. Then again, if the Council were less motivated or well meaning, it would be a problem. Participation is certainly up, so things seem to be going pretty well. Can we keep it up? Will we keep growing? The proof will be in the pudding as they say.

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Klingon
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Klingon » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:50 pm

Nastyogre wrote:
Bloodknight wrote:
It is maddening.
Yeah. Now you see why we burned through some admins in some time (and that includes me. I'm really happy that you guys are trying to figure it all out now and not I anymore). Given that Spork and Tuco have been doing this for ages, at least I used to extremely underestimate their work until I hopped in for a cycle and had to try to make sense of it all (also, never forget that gamers can be an unforgiving bunch, I think a certain ruminant can sing arias about that). It tells me that we should make everybody look at all this stuff at least once so the admins get the appreciation they deserve.
I THINK, this is a good way to do things. It is a bit of giving the inmates control of the asylum, but with a group of motivated, well meaning councilmembers, it can really shift that burden to be more realistic. The biggest, most important things are the job of the admins. The stuff that simply cannot be left to chance or the whimsy of a player base. Mods help enforce the rules and assist with problems. Council helps set the adjustable campaign rules. Involvement of the rank and file in electing the Council and the having the Council act as pseudo-staff really legitimizes things. It's all the rage in corporate management these days.

We will see. We could totally screw it up. These ops and the ELO adjustment could totally backfire. Any sort of campaign that is more than a matchmaking service is fraught with perils. We could screw it up badly enough the admins will have to take back over or override the Council. Then again, if the Council were less motivated or well meaning, it would be a problem. Participation is certainly up, so things seem to be going pretty well. Can we keep it up? Will we keep growing? The proof will be in the pudding as they say.
Staff will prevent you (or rather, simply not implement) truly game-breaking things, or intervene to fix it if it somehow winds up that way anyways.
"Grasshopper, the three secrets to life are as follows. First, keep your eyes and ears open. Second... don't tell everything you know."

Got a good idea to add to MekWars? We'd love to hear about it. (from that page, go to "Tickets", then "Feature Requests")

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 pm

Of course, and we know it. It's why we talk it to death and take it seriously. The last thing we want is to do stupid things.

Let's hope you all don't think our ops are stupid or game breaking. :-)

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Mole
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Mole » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:35 am

Personally, my involvement in the Council is all part of a secret plot for the Periphery to take over the entire Inner Sphere and make everyone adopt a parrot and talk like a pirate. Arrr, matey! Damn, not secret anymore, too much rum, I guess. ;-)
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Jackal
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Jackal » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:30 pm

LOL. I keep clicking on this thread thinking it's about donating units to the house bays. :wink:

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Nastyogre
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Re: Donating to faction

Post by Nastyogre » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:06 pm

It is. I have the calc and the variables for it.

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