Some nice analysis videos on gaming

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obese pigeon
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:51 am

Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by obese pigeon » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:49 am

Hullo, I found some pretty interesting analysis videos on gaming to share with you guys.

Analysis: The Effects of Salt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbjSeBOP-MA

Analysis: The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

While these videos are in the context of 2D fighting arcade games, there are some nice takeaways that can be applied to the classic battletech gaming community as well. Example, do you balance the game towards veterans or new players (ie going casual)? Dealing with 'unfairness' or unfair strategies within games etc.

Good stuff

Ceorl
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Re: Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by Ceorl » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:51 am

Good videos, thanks for the links.

For my part, I like Analysis: The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap discussing the use of "luck" in game design, with luck being more frequent in "party games". I'm reminded of a comment you made awhile back that BT's designers never envisioned people would play the game as much as we do, and I think you're right.

Tabletop wasn't designed to be the hardcore game it has become, which creates an underlying design tension that has never been resolved (hence many unofficial rules such as int compensation). Without the ability for this server to alter game rules, we will never solve that tension.

Finally, I like Analysis: The Effects of Salt for describing an methodology to address the complaint of crappy players. This server, regardless of who has implemented the changes, has never really had a "design doc" to base alterations on which has lead to fairly radical changes from cycle to cycle. Radical changes, as the videos discuss, alienate existing players, and I'm fairly certain that has fed into many of the complaints over the years.
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obese pigeon
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Re: Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by obese pigeon » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:34 am

Ceorl wrote: For my part, I like Analysis: The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap discussing the use of "luck" in game design, with luck being more frequent in "party games".
Given how heavily luck factors in classic BT, i suppose it wouldn't be wrong to consider it half a party game :p
If you win, its due to skill, lose and its due to RNG :)

But yeah, its certainly not a pure skill game like Chess or Starcraft.
Ceorl wrote: Tabletop wasn't designed to be the hardcore game it has become, which creates an underlying design tension that has never been resolved (hence many unofficial rules such as int compensation). Without the ability for this server to alter game rules, we will never solve that tension.
I'm not sure that changing the core rules is the right approach. I think it might be better if players realize it is not a pure competitive game and not treat it as such. Easier said then done though, player behaviour is one of the hardest things to change
Ceorl wrote: Radical changes, as the videos discuss, alienate existing players, and I'm fairly certain that has fed into many of the complaints over the years.
Yeah i'm feeling pretty alienated by the radical changes this cycle and completely lost interest in playing.

Ceorl
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Re: Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by Ceorl » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:05 am

I'm not sure that changing the core rules is the right approach. I think it might be better if players realize it is not a pure competitive game and not treat it as such. Easier said then done though, player behaviour is one of the hardest things to change
I have always been very skeptical of asking the player base to simply behave better or act altruistically. My experiences, including my own conduct, do not support evidence of sustained good conduct irrespective of the game. Rather, I think it is more productive, as the videos discuss, to discuss balancing attracting new players while rewarding veteran players, the two objectives often being mutually exclusive? In other words, how does a system encourage player conduct?

For example, I attempted to play DOTA 2 after a buddy praised it. I was so bad the game literally banned me from playing, forcing me into a "low priority queue" reserved for cheaters and potty moths with severely restricted gameplay. If a system is going to penalize me for sucking then it isn't worth my time to try and improve.

Similarly, I can find little incentive for low level play on this server. Crappy players are relentlessly smashed, always behind in units, cbills and bays, yelled at by their teammates for putting the faction behind in the metagame. This server rewards veteran performance over new player initiation, and I do not expect player behavior to change as long as that system design is in place.

For example, the server would benefit from creating a design structure which encourages veteran players to bring in new players (say through basing factory production more heavily around the total # of faction players active). With veterans able to rely on the open BM to cherry pick lances they have little reason to work with crappy players, and instead are incentivized to scare them off so the noobs don't wreck the vet's hard work on the meta game.
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Tuco
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Re: Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by Tuco » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:01 am

Ceorl wrote: Similarly, I can find little incentive for low level play on this server. Crappy players are relentlessly smashed, always behind in units, cbills and bays, yelled at by their teammates for putting the faction behind in the metagame. [...]
With veterans able to rely on the open BM to cherry pick lances they have little reason to work with crappy players, and instead are incentivized to scare them off so the noobs don't wreck the vet's hard work on the meta game.
I think that's overly pessimistic and not true. I have not found any behavior from veteran players like this in the logs for a very, very long time.
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Spork
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Re: Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by Spork » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:34 pm

Ceorl wrote: For example, the server would benefit from creating a design structure which encourages veteran players to bring in new players (say through basing factory production more heavily around the total # of faction players active).
That is *exactly* how production works. The more players you have active, the more you produce and the faster your factories refresh.
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Ceorl
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Re: Some nice analysis videos on gaming

Post by Ceorl » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 am

@Spork

I respectfully request the sentence quoted be read in tandem with the next sentence. Historically factory production, regardless of component generation, has been a distant third in importance to the BM and RP pulls. Currently with an open BM, and, at least in P, the house bays flooded with auto produced units I believe proportional increases in component production to be unimportant. I believe this independence from factory production encourages individual play which generally rewards veteran skill over rookie incentive as discussed in the cited videos.

Regardless, I don't mean to stray too far from the OPs point. If you haven't watched the videos, I recommend doing so as the concepts are easily applicable to the server.
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