Update the rules!

Post here your ideas for the campaign settings

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Ben Holland
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Update the rules!

Post by Ben Holland » Wed May 03, 2017 12:58 am

Some people think spotting with VTOLs is illegal....
Some people think Hulling Down is illegal....

Can we please update the rules? Or at least a recent post saying that the rules are up to date? I've seen a game get cancelled because a mod thought the VTOL thing was illegal in recent memory
Last edited by Ben Holland on Wed May 03, 2017 3:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

Chaser
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Chaser » Wed May 03, 2017 2:10 am

If there is not a rule against it it is allowed.

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Nastyogre
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Nastyogre » Wed May 03, 2017 3:08 am

To answer your points directly:
Spotting with AERO is against the rules. Since aero/ground is not possible it does not need to be forbidden. Spotting with Vtols is just being a %#! ^$$#. One could argue that such armies when played to the hilt violate the manifesto.

Hull down was forbidden for a long time, that special rule has been removed. I do not find it. Thus it must be allowed.

Soooo...the rules are updated. There are no updates needed for your suggestions.

A post that might state: The rules are updated, I suppose it might be a good idea. But why would we post rules that said "This is now allowed" or "Something that cannot happen is disallowed?"

I can't comment on what a Mod did or thought was legal or not.

Saint
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Saint » Wed May 03, 2017 5:26 am

i believe hull down was disallowed because it was bugged. either it has been fixed or the rule enabling it is not toggled on as an option. I've only ever seen it used by a mek in this campaign, and it had no apparent effect whatsoever.

I could have sworn I saw something from Spork that said VTOL spotting was a no-no. It must have been in-game/client chat or my imagination because I can't find a post referring to that anywhere.
it ain't no taint to be the Saint

Tuco
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Tuco » Wed May 03, 2017 8:47 am

VTOL spotting is not explicitly forbidden. I can safely say however, that Spork and I don't like it at all. That's our personal opinion.

Imagine this would not be a computer game but a tabletop tourney (a long one :) ). Or a gamestore gaming group.
You VTOL spotters, how many games do you think would you get, after doing this once and everyone else saw it?

We do not want to get drawn into a I-don't-like-this-and-that discussion because that could easily lead to stripped and boring server settings. We also don't want to get drawn into competitive-or-casual-environment discussions because the server is meant to be both. However, we will act if necessary and so that the Manifesto is honored.
I think the Rules are uptodate, and especially paragraph 1 and 2 cover what was said.

I will list a few historical decisions when something got completely out of hand. You may remember those, but it has been a while. I am happy we now get along with the slighter slaps dealt by the Moderator Team.
- removal of a certain unit type from all buildtables and accounts.
- adminnoplay of the complete playerbase for a certain account.
- account deletion
- permaban
- IP-range or provider ban at the firewall.

You're all adults here, I think. Act like you are, at least.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

Deadweight
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Deadweight » Sun May 07, 2017 8:05 am

Ben can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think he's really complaining about is the fact that there isn't really a place where is specifically tells players which TacOps/StratOps/ISO/Unoffical rules are being used in the current cycle of MMN.

One cycle "hull down" might be turned on. The next it's gone. This cycle player controlled pilot leveling is turned on. It wasn't a few cycles ago.... etc. etc.

It can be really frustrating to discover you've been losing matches because you were unaware that a couple optional rules were turned on that you could have made use of. Players shouldn't have to learn which rules are turned on after the fact.

It would be great if there was a list posted somewhere (and a very clear link to it in the welcome message of the MMN client) which outlined which MegaMek settings (with a brief explanation of what they do) were turned on/off. Ideally the list would be updated at the start of each cycle and any time that the CO6 decided to turn one on/off during said cycle. Also it would be a great place to post all of the MMN homebrew rules (specialty ammo restrictions, infantry being forced to move after 3rd mech, etc etc).

I actually made a list for a MegaMek tourney I ran once and it looked like this (note that each category corresponds with a tab from the megamek Game Options menu).
BASIC OPTIONS Used (Most of these are standard rules from TW)
• Skip ineligible during physical
• Allow pushing off the map
• Paranoid Autosave (be sure to delete any autosave files after the game is over)
• Exclusive Blind Drop deployment zones
• Blind Drop
• Real Blind Drop (Blind drop options hide your units from the enemy in the lobby)
• First round for dumping ammo -> FOUR
• Automatically set artillery to home edge
• CF for bridges -> 100
• Show detail of weapon bays
• Flamers can deal heat instead of damage
• Indirect Fire
• Use Random Basements <--------- TURNED ON SINCE LAST CYCLE (an example of how MMN could help keep players informed)
• Automatically Assign AMS

VICTORY CONDITIONS Used
• Skip all phases when forced victory occurs
• Check for victory -> 2 min conditions to win
• Destroy enemy BV -> 60%
• Force game end at turn limit -> 25 turns
• Kill Count victory -> 12 Number of kills to achieve victory

ALLOWED UNITS AND EQUIPMENT Used
• Year game takes place in -> 3055
• Tech Level -> Advanced
• Allow Invalid Unit Designs

ADVANCED RULES used
• TacOps Minefields – This allows Thunder LRMs to work. Players may not setup traditional minefields.
• TacOps Double Blind
• TacOps Sensor Rules
• No Double Blind Messages
• TacOps Beagle Active Probe
• TacOps Dig In (Infantry)
• (Unofficial) MagScan sensors blocked by hills
• (Unofficial) Woods have a chance to burn down -> 5CF per turn
• (Unofficial) No igniting clear hexes

ADVANCED COMBAT used
• TacOps Through Armor Criticals will “float” – OPTIONAL
• TacOps Firing While Prone
• TacOps Starting Fires
• TacOps Charge Damage
• (Unofficial) Unjam Ultra Autocannons
• (Unofficial) Burning Woods/Jungle doesn’t generate smoke

ADVANCED GROUND MOVEMENT used
• TacOps Backward Movement - OPTIONAL
• TacOps Careful Stand – OPTIONAL
• (Unoffical) Ejected Pilots Flee

ADVANCED AEROSPACE RULES used
• None

INITIATIVE RULES used
• (Unoffical) Simultaneous Firing Phase – OPTIONAL
• (Unoffical) Simultaneous Physical Phase – OPTIONAL
• (Unoffical) Initiative Streak Compensation – OPTIONAL

RPG RELATED used
• None

Any setting with a OPTIONAL is by default turned on for this tournament. However, if both players agree, they may turn any of the OPTIONAL settings off. No other settings may be turned on or off.

BarukKhazad
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by BarukKhazad » Sun May 07, 2017 1:26 pm

Deadweight,
Individual players need to be responsible for learning what optional rules are in use, just as they are responsible for reading the server rules, responsible for knowing what the available ammo types do, and responsible for reading the rules from the copyrighted rulebooks.

Rather than have a list that needs to be updated, there should be a "this is how you can check which optional megamek rules are in use" guide. I'm not sure if this has been addressed in any of the current player guides or on the wiki, but it belongs there. You write the guide and someone will help put in the right place, probably the wiki. It might already exist. Once the guide exists, then players will know how to check quickly to see what changed, or if an option that is important to them is on or off.

Ben,
The Special Rules Reminders are the place where server rules are intended to override MegaMek rules (reminding players when something is buggy is possible and/or is illegal). These may have been outdated due to changes in MegaMek's code, and I will pickup the task of updating them for next cycle.

The game cancellation that you saw had nothing to do with a rule about vtol spotting. Have you ever been with a bunch of friends and watched one trying to screw up everyone's gameday by taking some impossible-to-beat army that relied on a trick of the rules? Those situations end in two ways, the group creates house rules to reduce that behavior/trick or the group kicks the jerk out of the gaming group. The monthly/weekend gaming sessions at a gaming store go through the same routine, with the store owner or their representative acting as a moderator for the different players that arrive. Here, we have internet anonymity and players that screw over others without the group noticing, then claim that it isn't in the rules. Think about those situations you've seen in life that are similar to this, they only end in those two ways.
I had opinions/That didn't matter/I had a brain/That felt like pancake batter
I got a backyard/With nothing in it/Except a stick/A dog/And a box with something in it
The hardest button to button/ /The hardest button to button/ /The hardest button to button

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Nastyogre
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Nastyogre » Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm

I think Deadweights suggestion isn't a bad one though I agree entirely with Baruk as well. We should have some guidance on how to check those options.

One caveat... on the Wiki. I know this is the Admins expectations. On the Wiki. A well maintained wiki will more easily communicate this info. Searching through threads, even stickies or announcements isn't as easy as using a good Wiki.

Deadweight
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Deadweight » Sun May 07, 2017 7:23 pm

BarukKhazad wrote:,
Individual players need to be responsible for learning what optional rules are in use, just as they are responsible for reading the server rules, responsible for knowing what the available ammo types do, and responsible for reading the rules from the copyrighted rulebooks.
While I don't disagree that players need to learn the rules for themselves, it doesn't hurt to help them do so. Especially when you consider that:
A) Which optional/unofficial rules MMN uses in a given cycle often change,
B) Many of the titles MegaMek uses for the optional/unofficial rules aren't "new user friendly" (understandably this isn't MMN's fault, but that doesn't mean MMN can't help fix the problem in their own environment), and
C) Some of the server rules MMN uses aren't in ANY rulebook and their specifics aren't posted anywhere (For example, I can't find anywhere in the Rules sub-forum where it specifies that infantry MUST move after my 3rd mech moves, or that I'm not allowed to use an army consisting of only two mechs - can you?).


I really can't believe that you're arguing against having something as simple as an updateable stickied post (with comments turned off) which lists all the optional/unofficial/server rules in use and explains them.

Once it's setup, it would take mere minutes for the server admins to update at the start of every cycle, or whenever a change to the rules is made. And it would go a long way to helping newer or returning players not get frustrated when a rule they weren't expecting catches them by surprise.

Chaser
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Chaser » Sun May 07, 2017 9:01 pm

I was able to find that i can't just you two mechs in about 10 seconds. It took longer to copy and paste them here actually.



viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8485
http://www.mekwars.org/mediawiki-1.20.2 ... Operations

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Nastyogre
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Nastyogre » Sun May 07, 2017 9:15 pm

Chaser wrote:I was able to find that i can't just you two mechs in about 10 seconds. It took longer to copy and paste them here actually.



viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8485
http://www.mekwars.org/mediawiki-1.20.2 ... Operations

And the staff make it clear the intent of the wiki... These aren't my rules, Chaser's rules, or even Barukhazad's rules. Spork wants operation details on the Wiki. If I were a betting man, be wants most other things too. Yes, I would think a stickied post would be continued but I don't know. Lots of other games use their Wiki's almost exclusively and a complaint is when it's not there or in different places.

I think forums are for discussions and announcements. Wiki's are for rules, explanations and information.

I know I want to see much more of the Council's work reflected on the Wiki.

BarukKhazad
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by BarukKhazad » Mon May 08, 2017 12:57 am

Deadweight, so you are not willing to help set up a guide on how to read the game options within MegaMek, but you want someone else to do that and more, to your specifications? Sign up for wiki duty now. Do it. Create this system of documentation that you want.

If you think wiki formatting is no fun, stick your head into Java for a while!

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Alsadius
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Alsadius » Mon May 08, 2017 2:58 am

BarukKhazad wrote:Sign up for wiki duty now.
How do we do that? I won't have too much to add just yet, but I can do a few things.

Edit: NM, just found it in the other forum.
Member, Council of Six

Tuco
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Re: Update the rules!

Post by Tuco » Mon May 08, 2017 10:56 am

Good suggestion, Deadweight. We once had a sticky listing all used MM options but it was abandoned when the ops description migrated to the wiki.
So yes, this list should be made but please use the wiki.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

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