Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

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Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:54 am

OK this is what happen I was active waiting for someone to show up and blind the poor soul, I don't care at all is the guy going active is ACA, FWL, P or SOL, If someone go active is fair game to blind and I made my armies accordingly to that. So anyway i was active a SOL player when active he didn't ask in main to anyone for a game or ask me personally to arrange a game vs him he just went active so what I did i blind him with the army i have a his BV. After 2 hours playing because he took his time moving and firing (by the way he was new to the campaign no to megamek ) Baruk show up in the client to "observer" what was happening. After the game this is my conversation to Baruk:

[00:08] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: i kick you to end the game :)
[00:09] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: if you can believe it at all of course otherwise i kick you because we are mortal enemies muahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :)
[00:09] => BarukKhazad [ACA]:
[00:11] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: Baruk how many bays is the max one can get in total?
[00:11] BarukKhazad [ACA]: If you ever bring another army like that to a SOL I may just scrap it.
[00:12] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: i didnt bring that army to SOL i was active he went active
[00:12] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: i use it
[00:12] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: if instead of SOL is ACA or FWL i use the same army
[00:12] BarukKhazad [ACA]: DO NOT BRING ANOTHER ARMY LIKE THAT TO SOL. I will not repeat myself.
[00:12] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: when im active i use what i have active vs anyone
[00:13] BarukKhazad [ACA]: If you don't like what I am saying take it to the forums.
[00:13] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: i didnt arrange that game
[00:13] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: so what you are telling me if that if im active i cannot blind anyone that go active
[00:14] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: because if a SOL go active instead of asking for a game obviously is looking to be blind for anyone
[00:14] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: by anyone
[00:15] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: if that what you are telling me Baruk?
[00:17] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: if i would have arrange the game and bring that army i understand perfectly what you are trying to tell me but because i was active and blind the player what you are saying doesn't made any sense at all
[00:19] => BarukKhazad [ACA]: i would like an answer from you to the question I made to you in relation to what you have told me


Obviously I grow up old and die of old age before Baruk answer me at all. So that is why I bring this to the forums to heir an official answer from the admins/mods.

Because basically what Baruk is telling me is if I'm active and a SOL got active i simple cannot blind him because my armies are to nasty, or to levelled or too whatever he wants. I had the strange impression maybe I'm dead wrong who knows that this was a blind game system and arrange is a consideration players give to another players. I understand what Baruk was trying to said to me if the case was that I arrange the game with the SOL and then bring that army then we will have been totally in the same page. When I arrange a SOL game i bring 5/5 units to levelled them or units that i want to gain some exp to gain a skill like MS or DM, etc I don't need to arrange a SOL a bring a nasty army at all.

I wonder what will be the next step in Baruk's agenda maybe telling me i cannot bring that army or that other army vs inexperience faction players because he doesn't like it, to nasty or to levelled for players just out of SOL and remember that I don't arrange a single game with anyone I only play blinds. I blind someone or i have been blind by someone and the only games that i arrange when i arrange it are SOL games and i bring very normal stuff sometimes even 3 or 4 5/5 units.

So please can some admin/mod show me some light here and tell me exactly what to do or not to do when I blind anyone inclusive SOL players in a game system that is supposed to be by blinds.

Kind regards,

Illician Lancers

BarukKhazad
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:56 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by BarukKhazad » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:54 am

When I checked on the current games as I often do and saw this:

#0 [Attacker: Illician Lancers / Defender:UnsungHeroes / Type: Tutorial - Ground / Start BV: 8232 / Duration: 2h 20m] Illician Lancers[CC] is attempting a Tutorial - Ground on Solaris VII with
JVN-10N [3/5AT2,NAG,PR,MS,DM],
Striker Light Tank (SRM) [3/5AT2,NAG],
Striker Light Tank (SRM) [3/5AT2,NAG],
Striker Light Tank (LRM) [3/5AT2,NAG],
Roc Assault APC [3/4AT2,MA,NAG],
Foot Rifle Platoon (Sniper Rifle) [3/5NAG],
Foot Rifle Platoon (Assault Rifle) [3/5NAG],
Foot Rifle Platoon (Assault Rifle) [4/5],
Foot Rifle Platoon (Assault Rifle) [4/5]
; BV: 4122.
UnsungHeroes[SOL] is defending with "Training Ops Army" -
HBK-4G [4/5],
JVN-10N [4/5],
OSR-2C [4/5],
Bulldog Medium Tank [4/5],
VL-2T [4/5]
; BV: 4110

I noted that "Duration: 2h 20m" and went into the game to observe. UnsungHeroes had one visible mek. Illician Lancers had an APC with a foot infy in some trees on a road, about 3 hexes from the mek, and another foot infy on a building about 20 hexes from the mek. It was round 9 and the game ended within 10 minutes.

New players...
- Often have limited tabletop experience and limited experience with units besides meks.
- Often respond poorly to playing against trick armies.
- Often judge the server and the community based on their early games with that community.

If Illician Lancers cannot immediately see that using an IDF army on SOL against an unknown/new player is bad for this community, what will make him see this?

The Manifesto.

Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:43 am

Illician Lancers can be many things and call many names but one thing I'm not is abusive towards SOL players ever. When I play SOL I always ask if the player have exp playing megamek or not, The SOL player answer me he have exp playing megamek but not the campaign that is for starters and you can see ride away when players never played megamek they do things a player with some exp never does like running a mech 2 hex in open map giving 2 to hit to himself and nothing to hit to the opponent. It is hard enough to come back from that to try on top to take advantage of those players by using a nasty army if the game is arrange, but if is a blind i use what i bring period.

Then you only saw the last turn of the game no all the game, if you have observed the full game you will have see that yes i used IDF and yes i kill a hbk 4G putting javellin and stricker in his back in adjacent hex twice, then i went close to the javellin adjacent to him twice and kill him with roc, stricker, then i went looking the vulcan , ostroc and bulldog , he put the vulcan on top of a building CF 47 and i didn't hide myself i went for it, collapsing the building, then i kill the vulcan that was were you arrive more or less to observe that IDF you said is only 2 lrm 10 and 1 lrm 15 i can do some damage with that combo but hard to kill some of the units he brings like the ostroc with 2 lrm 10 and 1 lrm 15.

Yes game took 2 h and 20 min as you said because he tooks a long time to move and fire each unit i don't have a problem when i play SOL for then to take longer, he was amaze with all the new features of the megamek version he was used to the old megameks. Anything he ask me i answer him trying to help him. That army of mine isn't an IDF army but if i can use IDF sometimes to my advantage i used it, no excuses no BS. I use everything i can to my advantage when i play anyone, units, map, exp, mistakes, traps, skips, falls, LOS, cutting LOS, etc. and if someone else say they don't do that well I'm 100 % sure isn't true.

Again I'm still waiting for some admin/mod to tell me when I'm active i cannot blind a SOL player that go active with anything i have active in a game base in blind concept games. Otherwise i see out of order that Baruk tell me because i blind the player with that army he maybe will scrap my army next time. why? Did I do something wrong blinding the player. I don't think so but still he told me very firmly that if I used that type of army vs a SOL he will do that to me even after i explain to him I didn't arrange the game that i blind the SOL player.

I understand very well the concept of protecting the new SOL players for then to like the game and stay, it was bad luck that the SOL map was city but that doesn't mean that because is a city or the other player a SOL player i should play badly or worse for his benefit i played what i bring in my army to his full potential in a blind game and I was not even trying to cut LOS hard to use all those nice srm 2 of the strickers srm with no LOS, or the roc mgs, flammer and javellin srm 6 well unless i find it hard to used with no LOS maybe someone else will find it super easy.

So ones again I will wait for an admin/mod to answer the question I ask in this complain.

Kind regards,

Illician Lancers

Lumpi
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:24 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Lumpi » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:54 am

Excerpt from the manifest:
4. What we demand from players

Knowledge and respect of the rules. Respect of other players. Extreme respect of moderators.

We demand they don't engage in "rule lawyering" defined as nitpicking on every diminituve detail of the wording of the rules, so to twist their meaning and leverage loopholes to gain any kind of advantage (either real or perceived) by doing so. This is not a tribunal, we don't want lawyers and attorneys.

We require players behave in a mature and reasonable way AT ALL TIMES. The more the feet stomping, the less our tolerance.

We require that any problem the players might have with the system or with other players be notified FIRST to the staff. No self-enforcing justice here. Everything can be fixed, but if you want to be the lawmaker, the judge, the jury and the executioner, better start looking for some other place to play into.

5. What we expect from players

Fairness, honesty, sportmanship, maturity, understanding that in the end this is only a videogame.

We expect that they are not annoying, that they understand what to do when they're being answered "stop it", "drop it" or "it's enough".

We expect they don't think of themselves as having any special privilege when they perform "game duties" with more dedication than the average player.

We expect them not to behave like morons.


In Addition what Baruk allready mentioned before notify these things.
Also for future reference do not hide behind a rule to smoke another one!

Case is closed.
"was interessiert mich mein geschwätz von gestern!" Konrad Adenauer German Chancelor
"what do I care about my chatter from yesterday!"

Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:10 am

So in a blind system game what you are telling me is that i cannot blind. Will be super handy if you said it with all the words and no trying to go around the rules. All those rules are nice and are there for a reason that i understand. But ones again what you are telling me I'm in the wrong for blind a SOL player when I was active and he went active. Because i know how to read rules too and this is a rule from here:

from the special rules reminder

5) Being active openly announces your willingness to commit to any game. Stating your intention of playing an arranged game and then going active has no legal, moral or sportsmanship claim over any other player. If you desire to play an arranged game against a specific individual, be sure to use one of the available Attack-From-Reserve, or AFR, operations. The only exception to this rule that will be enforced by the admins and moderators are players who have to retask for any reason. The same exception applies to SOL games.

so it is the rule that you mentioned stronger that this rule, more overruling, I don't try to be a lawyer here but if you have a rule that i'm following you cannot tell me i'm in the wrong because i'm not under that rule. maybe you need to add some limits to one of the rules to said this is an exception in this or that case until then under this rule I wasn't in the wrong at all.

BarukKhazad
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:56 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by BarukKhazad » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:00 pm

Well, it happened again...
#0 Illician Lancers[CC] is attempting a Tutorial - Ground on Solaris VII (Units: 3 Meks, 3 Vees, 1 VTOLs, 2 Inf / BV: 4336). UnsungHeroes[SOL] is defending (Units: 4 Meks, 1 Vees, 2 Inf / BV: 4321)

LCT-1V [4/5AT2,MS],
LCT-1V [4/5AT2,MS],
LCT-1V [4/5AT2],
Scimitar Medium Hover Tank (Missile) [3/5MA,AT2,NAG],
Scimitar Medium Hover Tank (Missile) [3/5MA,AT2,NAG],
Pegasus Scout Hover Tank (Sensors) [3/5MA,NAG,AT2],
Karnov UR Transport [4/5AT2],
Mechanized Hover Rifle Platoon (Heavy Flamer) [3NAG],
Mechanized Hover Rifle Platoon (Assault Rifle) [3NAG]
; BV: 4336
It appears that UnsungHeroes logged out before the game started. If anyone sees him log in again, please offer him a game with some non-crap army. The one PM he replied with to me was "Yeah i only know the very basic / iconic units like jenner atlas that kind of stuff. mostly the Base Set Meks. Tanks and Inf is something I had not yet played against."

Now that army above... This how it was used in another game a few hours ago when PumpernicklePete attacked Illician Lancers.
[05:26] PumpernicklePete [ACA]: move phase. he put all his vees behind level1 cover so I cant target any of em. same for the infantry
[05:26] PumpernicklePete [ACA]: i only see his locusts and that karnov
[05:26] PumpernicklePete [ACA]: Karnov did not move
[05:27] PumpernicklePete [ACA]: none of my units can shoot at anything... 13s to hit or no LOS
[05:29] PumpernicklePete [ACA]: I see an IDF LRM it looks like, hitting my CRD on 6s
So I take a look and the line of fire shows both Scimitars are close range taking 6s and the Karnov is not moving on the far edge of the board.

So, we currently have no rules about VTOL spotters.

Manifesto anyone?
I had opinions/That didn't matter/I had a brain/That felt like pancake batter
I got a backyard/With nothing in it/Except a stick/A dog/And a box with something in it
The hardest button to button/ /The hardest button to button/ /The hardest button to button

Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:53 pm

Well you could unless put to the private PM i send you telling you one more time." I was active, a SOL player went active i blind him. What do you want me to do cancel. Because i can cancel before we started. Im trying to be honest and ( no sure about the last part, fair, doing the rigth thing or something similar ) ".

if you said something said everything dont let out my private PM to you about that blind game.

And yes because wasn't any rule that said i cannot use a vtol as spotter i was using a vtol as spotter vs PumpernicklePete. He has a good army so was what his issue he cannot hit me in round 2 oh boomer, too bad. But again i suppoused that 3 locust 1V, 1 pegasus sensors and 2 scimitar missiles , with a vtol and 2 hover inf it is a super desig of IDF army that must be for sure because i can fire the MLs , MGs, srm 2 and inf from behing cover something i only discover and know how to use. Seriously sometimes players complains are so off the mark, plus you didnt mention his army at all.

Assassin asn 21 3/5
Mon 67 4/5
clint 2T 3/5
crd 3r 3/5

You dont see me complaining about his army if he brings that at that bv i assume he knows how to handle it again no my problem he choose a planet with hills that is better for me that for him to get close to him whitout giving him LOS until i can take the back or some unit i want to kill. where in the rules said i need to give him easy hits to my units. like he said he can see my locusts and my vtol that is half my army do i was cutting LOS with all my army? NO. He has half my army to go for it he choose instead of going for it back up giving him more room to fire the crd 3r lrm, and clint ac 5. Again do i need to give him easy hit rolls to my units? NO So what is the problem with the army i used there? The problem is he couldn't hit me and i can hit him even if i dont use IDF at all i will still hitting him easyly that what he would have hit me at all.

Maybe admin and mod should come with a new universal rule only armies that can be used are 4 units mechs armies no vees, no inf, no vtol, no arty, no IDF, no more than 5 units because OMG you are swarming me just because you have 4 vs 5, etc. Easy for everyone then. Even then I can assure players will find a way to complaint about the 4 vs 4 mechs because of cheesey armies or whatever they can think off.

Again i don't see what i was doing wrong blinding a player even a SOL player with an active army or that I was going against the rules using a Vtol like a spotter.

You said it so yourself Baruk:

" So, we currently have no rules about VTOL spotters."

PumpernicklePete have played enougth to handle those type of situations and I keep going with the complaint because you are telling me Im doing something wrong in two different occassions when i was following the rules of the server. Blind is what this server is all about and Vtol spotter so far isnt rule that said couldn't be used.

I'm always following the rules but they need to be there to be follow.

Lumpi
MegamekNET Moderator
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:24 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Lumpi » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:32 pm

Lumpi wrote:Excerpt from the manifest:
4. What we demand from players

Knowledge and respect of the rules. Respect of other players. Extreme respect of moderators.

We demand they don't engage in "rule lawyering" defined as nitpicking on every diminituve detail of the wording of the rules, so to twist their meaning and leverage loopholes to gain any kind of advantage (either real or perceived) by doing so. This is not a tribunal, we don't want lawyers and attorneys.

We require players behave in a mature and reasonable way AT ALL TIMES. The more the feet stomping, the less our tolerance.

We require that any problem the players might have with the system or with other players be notified FIRST to the staff. No self-enforcing justice here. Everything can be fixed, but if you want to be the lawmaker, the judge, the jury and the executioner, better start looking for some other place to play into.

5. What we expect from players

Fairness, honesty, sportmanship, maturity, understanding that in the end this is only a videogame.

We expect that they are not annoying, that they understand what to do when they're being answered "stop it", "drop it" or "it's enough".

We expect they don't think of themselves as having any special privilege when they perform "game duties" with more dedication than the average player.

We expect them not to behave like morons.


In Addition what Baruk allready mentioned before notify these things.
Also for future reference do not hide behind a rule to smoke another one!

Case is closed.

One last time! Case is closed and the judge of the moderator Baruk is not disputted!
"was interessiert mich mein geschwätz von gestern!" Konrad Adenauer German Chancelor
"what do I care about my chatter from yesterday!"

User avatar
Tuco
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Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:23 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Tuco » Tue May 02, 2017 10:35 am

I have to re-open this, for a formal question. Illician Lancers, do you want to appeal a ruling by BarukKhazad as described here?:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=108

If so, all moderators will discuss this internally and reply with their decision.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Thu May 04, 2017 12:24 pm

Hi Tuco,

I want two things from this. First an official position about blinding SOL players. I understand the need to protect new players when they arrive to the community and if not that i don't understand the main point Baruk try to tell me, it is the way he told me what he will do if i bring an army like that again vs a SOL player and the implicit order that i cannot blind SOL when under the special rules section here said this:

5) Being active openly announces your willingness to commit to any game. Stating your intention of playing an arranged game and then going active has no legal, moral or sportsmanship claim over any other player. If you desire to play an arranged game against a specific individual, be sure to use one of the available Attack-From-Reserve, or AFR, operations. The only exception to this rule that will be enforced by the admins and moderators are players who have to retask for any reason. The same exception applies to SOL games.

If i got active with 6 armies I don't made my armies to play SOL games i made my armies to blind anyone that go active.that is why this is a blind system. If the official position from now on is that you cannot blind SOL players because you need to protect them. I don't have any issue at all with that I will follow the rules.

Second thing I want to bring to attention about the incident is how Baruk approached it. I know Baruk for a while now I like him, but i think are better ways for a Moderator to approach a situation and tell someone what to do or not, especially when I think I'm following the rules of the server and he is telling me I cannot do something that is legal to do, unless you change the rules or amended then to fix in the new situation.

Then Lumpi put twice that i should accept Baruk decision and been polite copying the manifest:

4. What we demand from players and 5. What we expect from players

The second time in bigger size, he was very helpful there my eyes had to work less to read the same thing. I'm no a lawyer, and i don't enjoy arguing about rules particularly but If i think a moderator is wrong and I cannot say so because of 4. What we demand from players and 5. What we expect from players well what is the point to have a complaints forum.

If I'm in the wrong I will apologise for it and do whatever the official position will demand, but unless will be an official position no an unspoken treat or a way to said we are moderators we never wrong so you do whatever we said with no more complains.

Kind regards,

Illician Lancers

User avatar
Tuco
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Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:23 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Tuco » Thu May 04, 2017 2:00 pm

That does not answer my question.
The Manifesto does not override the sticky post of this complaints forum. But you may have recognized that your complaint, or what you felt to complain about, is in a greyzone.

I will try to explain.
a) If you want an explanation of the ruling, you can get this explanation from BarukKhazad through game chat or forum PM.
b) If you disagree with the ruling, or disagree even with his explanation, you can complain against it and ask the Moderator Team as a whole (including BarukKhazad) to decide on your case again.

This forum here is only made for complaints player-to-player or complaints against moderator rulings, and ultimately against Moderator Team rulings.
This forum is NOT a discussion ground.

I'm asking you again: do you want to complain against the ruling?
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Thu May 04, 2017 3:13 pm

I understand what Baruk try to tell me, that is better not to attack a SOL player blinding then with that type of army even if the rules let me do it, because you need to made sure SOL players are protected to a minimum degree and don't get bore in a game. I didn't find his way of telling me correct or the best possible one, because he was imposing it instead of trying to explain the situation to me.

So answering your question Tuco. If i understand correctly the problem here I would like for the sentence to be revised before he or any other mod decide to scrap any army I'm using. Before getting to wrong conclusions they need to check if I'm using IDF all the time or maybe i got in a 20 rounds games 1 or 2 IDF shots. Because If i made my army to go active to blind anyone and I blind a SOL maybe I'm using that army with DF instead of IDF and i only take an opportunity IDF shot in a round or two for whatever reason. Because SOL games aren't to be played to be bore I always look to get close and interesting. Now if the issue of the ruling is that I blind a SOL that got active and I'm using vees, or to many levels units plus the supposed IDF problem I don't have a clue what to tell you about the ruling.

I hope that answer your question.

Illician Lancers
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Illician Lancers » Thu May 04, 2017 4:32 pm

yes i do please.

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Tuco
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Re: Baruk restricting me blind SOL players

Post by Tuco » Wed May 10, 2017 7:27 am

The Moderator Team has reviewed your case and voted on it.

Your complaint is dismissed. One Moderator abstained and the other Moderators voted to dismiss the complaint.

If you do not agree with the ruling of the Moderator Team, you can open a new topic and appeal to the Administrators.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

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