Fire without Smoke

Post here your ideas for the game engine (not campaign)

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Mock26
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Fire without Smoke

Post by Mock26 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:14 am

I would like to see the ability to set woods on fire set as a default setting for matches, but no smoke would be generated from such fires. I know back in the day it was relatively common for some fast jumping armies to set fires and make lots of smoke to block line of sight, and having fought against a number of such opponents I do not want to see a return of that. But, I do believe that fire is a valuable strategic tool, especially for trying to dislodge campers from wooded hexes (through an increase in heat each round and/or burning down the woods) and as a means of deterring or outright destroying vehicles and infantry (by creating barriers that they cannot pass or destroying units if stuck in hexes that are on fire). Setting fires will be accomplished either through using weapons, such as laser to try and ignite or inferno ammos and flamers to ignite with 100% chance.

I think that the end result will be that it will a valuable tool to add to a Player's book of tactics. It will give attackers a means of have some chance of forcing someone camping in the woods to move to either find cover elsewhere or give up cover completely. It will also give them another tactic for use against vehicles and infantry.

These effects will be accomplished in several ways. Take for example a 'Mech with 10 heat sinks and two LRM 15s camped in some heavy woods. He can stand still and fire both LRMs each round without having to worry about heat. If his opponent is able to set the woods on fire then that generates 5 points of heat each round. The 'Mech is now no longer as effective as it was. The Player now has to decide if it is worth it to stay in that hex. If he does he has to start to limit is firing so as to prevent over heating and any number of negative side effects.

As another example a tank is moving through some woods and gets a critical hit that renders it immobile. The opposing Player can try to set the hex on fire and destroy the tank. This will force tank commanders to be more aware of the dangers of moving through wooded hexes.

I cannot see any negative aspect of this. The only possible negative would be the use of smoke to cover movement and drag out games, but by keeping smoke disabled that will not be a problem.

This matters to me because setting fire to dislodge units and for anti-vehicle use was one aspect of the game that I have always enjoyed, both as a BattleTech player and as a MegaMek player. I think that it is a good rule, but one that is open to abuse (using smoke for cover). I would like to once more be able to set woods on fire as one of many tactical options that crop up during the course of a game.

I do not know if it is possible to turn on fire and not smoke, so this whole post may be for naught. If so I apologize.

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TigerShark
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by TigerShark » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:27 pm

I've wanted that for years, as well. Kind of like gravity affecting movement, but without targeting penalties for Ballistic or Missile weapon types.

'Mech pilots don't target by visual means; they use a combination of sensors to detect and track their target. So the smoke could really be 'implied' and forgotten. Gives people less incentive to 'woods camp,' gives some flavor back to units like the Firestarter, and adds a dimension to game play. :)

arlith
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by arlith » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:58 pm

An option like "(Unofficial) Burning forests don't generate smoke" would cover your suggestion, no? (Whether or not it's on/off by default is a decision better left up to MekWars, MM defaults would have it off, as it is an unofficial rule).
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Dwight Derringer
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Dwight Derringer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:16 am

I think that this is a good idea. Anything that promotes tactical thinking and makes units easier to hit is a good idea in my opinion.

The downside is that it makes fast moving units more powerful, and lightly armored but heavily armed units worse.

If a Schrek PPC Carrier has to fear woods, he is a sad Schrek.

Jackal
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Jackal » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:10 am

arlith wrote:An option like "(Unofficial) Burning forests don't generate smoke" would cover your suggestion, no? (Whether or not it's on/off by default is a decision better left up to MekWars, MM defaults would have it off, as it is an unofficial rule).
That's correct, Arlith. If we had the ability to toggle smoke on/off we might very well use fire without smoke on MMNet.


As a Council of Six member on MMNet, I would definitely propose using this setting (if it were available).

Saint
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Saint » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:14 am

I'd be all for this. I remember back in the day any proposal that required code was immediately shot down. But it seems like there's been some coding done since I was last here so maybe that's changed.
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TigerShark
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by TigerShark » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:12 pm

It still starts smoke with buildings and other terrain. That wouldn't work. Would have to have smoke "turned off" for all fires.

Jackal
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Jackal » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:18 am

@ Arlith, is smoke without fire hard or easy to implement?

arlith
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by arlith » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:38 pm

Jackal wrote:@ Arlith, is smoke without fire hard or easy to implement?
I've been really swamped lately. I don't think it would be very difficult, but I also haven't really had time to do anything as of late, so even very easy things haven't been happening. The best way to get it to happen someday would be to post a feature request on GitHub: https://github.com/MegaMek/megamek/issues/. Ideas in forum posts tend to get forgotten.
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Tuco
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Tuco » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:37 am

According to history.txt, this has already been added in 2016:

v0.41.13 (2016-01-01 03:35 UTC)
+ Feature: Added unofficial option to not generate smoke from burning woods
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

Chaser
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Chaser » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:29 pm

Is that ONLY woods though?

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Tuco
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Tuco » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:11 pm

The setting is described as burning woods / jungle...
Has to be looked up in code or simply tested in a MM host.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

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TigerShark
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by TigerShark » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:03 pm

Tuco wrote:The setting is described as burning woods / jungle...
Has to be looked up in code or simply tested in a MM host.
I have. It allows smoke to be generated when igniting any structure.

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Tuco
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Tuco » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:21 pm

Sucks.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

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Tuco
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Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by Tuco » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:29 pm

I suggest to expand this option to be a full fire without smoke setting. I know this is an unofficial option and therefor has superlow priority for the MM coders.
When the injustice is great enough, Justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it.
None may stand against it.
It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment and lend its servant the power to pass sentence.
Know this: there is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them.
It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods.
Know that for ALL who betray Justice, I am their fate... and fate carries an Executioner's Axe.

arlith
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Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:54 am

Re: Fire without Smoke

Post by arlith » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:06 am

This is far more likely to happen if there's a ticket for it on GitHub (https://github.com/MegaMek/megamek/issues).
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