BPRoberts needs some manners

Report here bad behavior and rule breaking

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Mole
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BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Mole » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:11 pm

I am not sure what rules this violates, but it's clearly unsportmanlike and a deliberate disconnect. I had just talked BPRoberts through how to launch an attack and let him attack me after creating an army to match his chosen BV. The matchup was his Icarus II, Wolverine, Hermes 2S and Vulcan vs. my two Centurions, one Condor hover, one Wasp, on Locust and one infantry unit.

And our exchange from in-game:

***Server: BPRoberts wants to admit defeat - type /victory to accept the surrender at the end of the turn.
Mole: something wrong?
***Server: BPRoberts wants to admit defeat - type /victory to accept the surrender at the end of the turn.
BPRoberts: Not gonna waste my time.
BPRoberts: You're so far ahead.
Mole: sorry, I don't understand, ahead on what?
BPRoberts: The game. You'll have the hermes and vulcan dead before I scratch your paint
Mole: look, I am perfectly happy to accept surrender when someone is beat, but you need to actually play the game, getting a coouple of shots in and one mek slips is hardly decisive
BPRoberts: I've been playing BT for 15 years. You're in a better position, and two of my mechs are out, it's pretty decisive.
Mole: out, what are you talking about? you haven't even suffered a single crit
BPRoberts: You're gonna bag the Vulcan this turn, and the hermes is never going to get to do anything, it's too far out of position
BPRoberts: I'm not gonna try to fight a whole lance with an Icarus and a Wolverine, it's a waste of both our times.
Mole: look, like I said, I am happy to accept surrender when a game is clearly decided, or when real life intervenes, but you can't just say "oh, I don't like the odds, I quit" if you really feel that way, just run for endes, flee and force the server to call it
BPRoberts: 2v5 is pretty clearly decided.
Mole: I count 4 vs 5, seems you are counting my chickens before they hatch instead of concentrating on how to win
Mole: you see, doom and gloom a bit premature
BPRoberts: Fuck you.

He then exited the game and the server and I won by forfeit after ten minutes. For the record, not one of his meks was in damaged significantly in any way, not one crit, even the fallen Hermes hadn't even suffered a pilot hit.

Here are my comments from main chat:

[23:54] Mole [P]: well, that was an unpleasant experience
[23:54] Mole [P]: thought I was helping BPRoberts get to know the game, but then he says he's been playing BT for 15 years
[23:55] Mole [P]: fair enough, so we play, I get in a few shots one one of his four meks, a Hermes, which slips and falls, so he asks me to call it
[23:56] Mole [P]: I explain to him that calling it for a clearly decisive situation or a real life emergency, not one mek slipping and falling, is the way we roll here
[23:56] Mole [P]: he ends with "fuck you" and leaves the game
[23:57] Mole [P]: nice
"Take what you can, give nothing back!"
The beard, the earrings, the rum...of course I'm a pirate.

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Klingon
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Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Klingon » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:34 pm

BPRoberts has been messaged to log in here and give his side of the story.

Observations pending BPRoberts' comments (or lack thereof).
"Grasshopper, the three secrets to life are as follows. First, keep your eyes and ears open. Second... don't tell everything you know."

Got a good idea to add to MekWars? We'd love to hear about it. (from that page, go to "Tickets", then "Feature Requests")

Spork
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Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Spork » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:57 pm

I have activated his forum account. This better be a good story...
Never had much, grew up with nothing
But the music, well it was something
Been down and out, I've been on top of the world,
World that keeps on spinning on a turntable.

BPRoberts
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Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:29 pm

Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by BPRoberts » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:37 am

I felt that I was far enough behind to surrender the game. I don't really see what further explanation is necessary. Refusing to allow the game to end is griefing, pure and simple. I disconnected because my opponent refused to end the game properly. If that's the kind of behavior that you want to encourage on your server, that's your prerogative. Feel free to ban me or whatever, I will not be back.

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Klingon
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Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Klingon » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:55 am

First, we appreciate your weighing in with your perspective. I always try to wait to render any judgement until everyone's had a chance to have their say. Mole's a vet, I probably could have gone ahead without it, but know you'll always have a chance to be heard.

There are at least four ways to "properly end the game", only one of which is your opponent accepting your surrender. If I accept Mole's analysis, I would also say that was premature; many a time I've held out and won a game simply by not giving up when the RNG took a nasty look at me. That, is neither here nor there, though.

1: The aforementioned surrender.

2: You eject units to put them in the salvage pool, enough to trigger the victory conditions.

3: You flee your units off the edge of the map, until the victory conditions trigger. (usually once it becomes clear that's what's going on an opponent will then accept the surrender simply to save time)

4: You fight, and try to win despite having had a turn of bad luck. Personally, that's my favorite, but be that as it may.

One of the cardinal rules we have on this server is respect. You got upset at the situation, you lashed out at Mole. He's a veteran, he knows this; you're new, and don't. One thing you may not have been aware of, especially since you're new, is that unless enough damage is done (typically a unit destroyed or ejected) the payout from the game is very poor. So, Mole had every reason to want to play on, and you had an obligation to do so. If you want to try to surrender the moment you get your knee scraped, that's your call, but it is your opponent's call to accept it or not. But it is not your call to be disrespectful, and far from being disrespectful, Mole was trying to help you out here with good advice.

Go if you want, but if you want to play here, you will learn and abide by our rules. If you can do that, you will be a better player. EDIT: If you can not, then best you go now, and not waste your time, and ours. That ball is in your court.

For the match itself, the autoresolve took care of the outcome, so that's not outstanding. For the disrespect, though, a penalty will be assessed.


CORRECTION: Not that it's likely to matter much, but I mentioned an appeal. If you decide to appeal, it goes to the moderator staff as a whole, whereas I ruled on this on my own. If you don't like that ruling, then you can appeal again, to the admins (I will say that if you do that, diplomacy will go a LONG ways there. The admins can do nothing, decrease, or increase punishment, and if your appeal is written angrily, it is unlikely* to work in your favor.)

*-I'm using the British penchant for understatement here.
"Grasshopper, the three secrets to life are as follows. First, keep your eyes and ears open. Second... don't tell everything you know."

Got a good idea to add to MekWars? We'd love to hear about it. (from that page, go to "Tickets", then "Feature Requests")

Spork
Mekwars Developer
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Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Spork » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:43 pm

BPRoberts,

There are very few people on this server with leave to say "fuck you" to an opponent. I am one of them. You are not.

There are equally few people who get to determine what is considered griefing on this server. I am one of them, and, yes, you are not.

If your response to a perfectly legal denial of surrender, which you would know was perfectly legal had you read the rules, is a curse and a sense of justifiability, well, then, fuck you, get off my server.
Never had much, grew up with nothing
But the music, well it was something
Been down and out, I've been on top of the world,
World that keeps on spinning on a turntable.

BPRoberts
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:29 pm

Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by BPRoberts » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:00 pm

Forcing a player to continue to play after they no longer wish to is textbook griefing. The fact that your server is apparently set up to encourage that, and that you have a public forum specifically to whine about players, makes it pretty clear that you don't understand anything about running a game, or a community. Your attitude proves it. No wonder you guys can't get more than a couple dozen people on your server for a game with thousands of players.

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Klingon
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Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Klingon » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:55 pm

BPRoberts wrote:Forcing a player to continue to play after they no longer wish to is textbook griefing.
No, that's ensuring that players are rewarded for players having spent their time in the game. This is a sourceforge project, and makes no money. You noticed that not only were you not charged anything, nor *could* you pay for anything? Yeah, the ones doing this project are doing it in their free time.
The fact that your server is apparently set up to encourage that, and that you have a public forum specifically to whine about players, makes it pretty clear that you don't understand anything about running a game, or a community. Your attitude proves it. No wonder you guys can't get more than a couple dozen people on your server for a game with thousands of players.
Right. Our community here, you're pretty much the outlier, but *you're* the one who knows everything? Tell you what, you go get your big boy pants on, download the source code, and run your own mekwars server by your rules, and show us how it's done. But we all know you can't/won't, mainly because we've been at this for decades.

When you decide you can play by the rules you agreed to when you logged in, try it again. But until you can fail a PSR and actually keep trying to win after that, you've got no ground whatsoever to call anyone here "whining", thankyouverymuch.

As this complaint has had pretty much everything ironed out that can be, I'm closing this one; if BPRoberts wants to appeal, he can, but that would involve him actually learning the rules of this community, which I'm not optimistic on. And said appeal would go to Spork, and I'm a lot less optimistic there.

Locking.

Punishment: scrapping the lance used in the intentional disconnect, and penalizing you 6,031 C-Bills.

If you decide you just don't want to come back, that's your call, and unless your attitude here improves, we really wouldn't want you. We want players who are here to play, not quit and whine (and then try to mind-bogglingly hypocritically claim everyone else is the whiners) and then whine some more when you can't just quit at the exact moment you want to.

You decide you want to play, then learn the rules, realize we *all* play by them, accept the level playing field for what it is, and we'll be glad to have you.
"Grasshopper, the three secrets to life are as follows. First, keep your eyes and ears open. Second... don't tell everything you know."

Got a good idea to add to MekWars? We'd love to hear about it. (from that page, go to "Tickets", then "Feature Requests")

Spork
Mekwars Developer
Posts: 3867
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:23 pm

Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Spork » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:36 pm

BPRoberts wrote:Forcing a player to continue to play after they no longer wish to is textbook griefing. The fact that your server is apparently set up to encourage that, and that you have a public forum specifically to whine about players, makes it pretty clear that you don't understand anything about running a game, or a community. Your attitude proves it. No wonder you guys can't get more than a couple dozen people on your server for a game with thousands of players.
Thousands of players? How many MekWars servers do you think there are?
Never had much, grew up with nothing
But the music, well it was something
Been down and out, I've been on top of the world,
World that keeps on spinning on a turntable.

Spork
Mekwars Developer
Posts: 3867
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:23 pm

Re: BPRoberts needs some manners

Post by Spork » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:45 pm

BPRoberts wrote:Forcing a player to continue to play after they no longer wish to is textbook griefing. The fact that your server is apparently set up to encourage that, and that you have a public forum specifically to whine about players, makes it pretty clear that you don't understand anything about running a game, or a community. Your attitude proves it. No wonder you guys can't get more than a couple dozen people on your server for a game with thousands of players.
I will also point out, as my last statement here, that calling into question my attitude, when you are the one who told a fellow player to fuck off, is laughable. Read the rules. When you are in contravention of those rules, it doesn't matter what you think.
Never had much, grew up with nothing
But the music, well it was something
Been down and out, I've been on top of the world,
World that keeps on spinning on a turntable.

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